I don't take creatine because i'm a cheap, cheap, cheap bastard. I haven't bulked in a long time and I've just started putting my training on overdrive.. when I used creatine 5 years ago I got it for free but I think it helped.

Being a cheap cheap bastard, would I be shooting myself in the foot if i neglect ol' creatine? I mean, I know the general physiology- but I don't generally see really cheap bastards like me using it- perhaps it's due to cheapness or because it's assumed.. not sure. So.. back to the basics-- how cheap do you have to be to neglect it?

From reading your other posts, it seems you have an array of supplements that are much more expensive than creatine. Creatine is pretty damn cheap.

In any event, no supplements are ever that necessary, but if you want the extra push, then go for it.

I spend $1.06 on supplements per day- and afer taking one out last week i made it to $0.89, giving me $0.11 to work with.

My nootropic stack is an experiment of sorts-- unnecessary as it may be, but I don't know what the latest on creatine is as I haven't considered it just because supps sneak up on me- i may have skipped this step.

Oh I also spend almost nothing on food as I eat steel cut oats, yams, and the cheapest protein on the planet (canned anything in bulk-- cheaper than dog food). I go to the local university where I paid $40 for 7 months of access to their equipment (yeah like $5.80/month). I only pay $.50 to park - i probably spend more on gas just warming up my car.

I have no problem buying it but I just need to know from you folk if its a suckers game as I don't trust what I read on bb.com.

No effect of creatine supplementation on human myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis after resistance exercise.

Louis M, Poortmans JR, Francaux M, Berre J, Boisseau N, Brassine E, Cuthbertson DJ, Smith K, Babraj JA, Waddell T, Rennie MJ.

Universite Catholique de Louvain, France.

Muscle hypertrophy during resistance training is reportedly increased by creatine supplementation. Having previously failed to find an anabolic effect on muscle protein turnover at rest, either fed or fasted, we have now examined the possibility of a stimulatory effect of creatine in conjunction with acute resistance exercise. Seven healthy men (body mass index, 23 +/- 2 kg/m2, 21 +/- 1 yr, means +/- SE) performed 20 x 10 repetitions of leg extension-flexion at 75% one-repetition maximum in one leg, on two occasions, 4 wk apart, before and after ingesting 21 g/day creatine for 5 days. The subjects ate approximately 21 g maltodextrin + 6 g protein/h for 3 h postexercise. We measured incorporation of [1-13C]leucine into quadriceps muscle proteins in the rested and exercised legs. Leg protein breakdown (as dilution of [2H5]phenylalanine) was also assessed in the exercised and rested leg postexercise. Creatine supplementation increased muscle total creatine by approximately 21% (P < 0.01). Exercise increased the synthetic rates of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic proteins by two- to threefold (P < 0.05), and leg phenylalanine balance became more positive, but creatine was without any anabolic effect.

PMID: 12824083 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


i'm discussing whether creatine is the limiter for between set energy recouperation. that's the only thing i would be expecting, anyways. Every time i read something on creatine it looks like a big peice of crap to me.

Creatine is great.

I have a bottle which is past its expiry date by about a month and in order not to waste it, i take in about 20 - 30g a day with lots of water.

Within a few days, my weight shoot up and can literally feel the muscles volumized. My calves got pumped till it almost cramp up a few times while training but i am happy because i was previously unable to establish a good mind and muscle connection with it.

It undoubtedly anabolic and you know about cell volumization....

I have always been led to believe (and I fully accept that I may be wrong) that 20-30g a day is excessive and, at that dosage, most of it will come out in your pee. I used 5-10g a day in divided doses, which worked fine.

I do accept everyone is different and respond to different supplements in different ways.

at that dosage much of it will leave be filtered by the nephrons in the kidneys. Spencer... it doesnt like suddenly become bad on the exp. date. If you have been storing it properly then it will be fine for longer than that.
-Layne

i would also note that creatine is one of the few supplements that I believe is actually worth spending money on.

BB-ing supplementation history:

protein and creatine

If you have a tight budget, don't bother with anything else.

You can get a 1000 grams of creatine for like 20 bucks. No excuse for not having some.

Get yourself a kg of creatine and you'd still have $0.06 per day to work with.

Damn...I thought I was the only one who tracked supplement cost per day. I get up to as high as $3.30 per training day when cutting and plan on around $2.50 per training day when eating above maint.

- Fletch

Jimmy and Layne,

I am fully aware of pissing away the excess. Its more of wanting to use it up quickly as the potency of the product dwindles the further it is from the date of expiry and hey, i started training again after being stagnant for months!! The visual effect of saturating my muscles with creatine is much welcome and keeps me on track....give me a break....

Creatine works and it's cheap. I can't see any reason why you wouldn't use it unless you're a non-responder or something.

Tracking supplement cost per day is actually a pretty cool idea. I usually just set a max cost per month and go with that.

Currently running UD 2.0, and I am hitting $7 on some days!!! It's ridiculous! I am thinking of re-evaluating my supplement regime since this is a lot to hold on to. It's mainly the NJ/KU/GO that raise the price like mad.

I don't include protein powder in my cost since that is included in my overall food budget. GO/KU/NJ and ICE are the culprits on the high cost per day but they cover just about everything I'd be mixing individually if I purchased in bulk. It's an issue of convenience over cost in this case.

ALA, Multi, and misc vitamins are on mandi's list.

- Fletch

I agree creatine should be a BB staple. Also, it is inexpensive. Props for keeping your supps to a minimum price too, I should def. start counting like that

Wow. I'm quite suprised that it turned out to be a staple - as I never see it mentioned in stacks.. that's probably (like i said before) because it IS indeed a staple and assumed. Last I heard it was still on the fence, but in high school I was a goddamn monster, and while I wouldn't credit creatine entirely, it was the only supplement I used (kids.. )

I dont count a multi or supplemental protein in my budget because i would be using a multi no matter what, and supplemental protein DOES count for calories, and gram for gram is cheaper than chicken breast even if you get it at GNC. Funny thing is that i spreadsheet everything at one time or another and figure out what my highest costs are and kindof do a benefit/cost analysis. Turns out that my most expensive protein is the 3 pound tubs of cottage cheese at CostCO. Lean lunch meat and a good steak or pork tenderloin turn out to be more but those are not on my daily schedule. By far the most expensive food product i take in is loose leaf green tea (Silk Roads Chinese Gun Powder) at about $4-$5/week.

Funny thing though is that you can't calibrate the cost you are saving in terms of health problems and treatment if you didn't (1) get your ass in the gym and (2) take a few supps every day. I see it as an investment, really. I also realize that after dropping 80 pounds I eat 700 less calories per day. Dude.. that adds up.

Creatine, in my opinion, is garbage.
I took it for over 3 months last year along with glutamine before and after each workout.
This was also in addition to having my post workout whey drink.

Creatine did absoluetly nothing to improve my strength and appearance.
I didn't feel any larger in my muscle, nor did I feel any strength drops once I dropped that crap.
What a friggin lie Creatine is

I am glad this is in the basics forum

Why? I am just stating a personal experience I had where the so-called legitimate creatine was nothing but a big failure.

I took it as intructed, I worked out, I gave it time, it did crap.
I don't see or understand your response.

How much did you take at one time & how often was it taken?

Not everyone respsonds to regular creatine monohydrate, and those that do respond in different degrees (as with any drug). Last I read, the response rate to creatine monohydrate was around 70% of the population.

I am unfortunately part of the unlucky minority and I can sympathize with volatile in that I spent 40$ one month and (after loading properly, etc.) I saw ZERO effects from it except some intestinal cramping (big D).

My advice to anyone that does not respond is to get some higher quality (and more expensive) kre-alkalyn as this is supposed to have a higher response rate... I believe Go and/or nitrojet contains kre-alkalyn. Personally, I have yet to try it out and see if I respond better to this.

WRT creatine shelf-life: I have about 700g of creatine thats been sitting around for almost 2 years. It's in one of those vaccum-sealed cereal containers, could anyone guestimate how degraded it could/should be?

Not worth the effort it takes for me to scoop it out of its container nor the $$$ spent on it, in my opinion.

Creatine works, but your muscles get nothing you can really "keep." Why take it when you can volumize your muscles with other things that tend to affect muscles more permanently? Note, strength and size usually increase (due to creatine, that is) only at the initial stage of creatine administration.

I agree that creatine IS useful and more than worth its $$$ around contest time, of course.

If you want something anabolic, just use protein + androgens. That is much more cost effective.

well creatine doesn't give you boobies .. just kidding doe- i'm planning a ph cycle but like i said i cut for a really long time and i have major growth potential- i just want to find a plateau which i know is going to be after quite a bit of lbm gets put on pretty quick. I was i think 10-20 pounds more LBM in friggin high school and like i said i didn't know how to train- I remember i had an 18.5" neck when i was looking for a suit. Now i have i think 17.25". I was just a big offensive lineman oaf. doing PH now might be really giving me a great kickstart, but I "they" say to wait until you need 'em. I don't really listen to "them" though so who knows.. I'm only looking for another 10-15 lb of lean body mass. less than 1" on my arms and whatever i get out of my chest, some volume to match everywhere else and I would be satisfied.

You can find "negative" studies on even some of the most well-established drugs... and look at the sample size, you need a huge effect for an effect to be statistically significant with only seven subjects. Multiple meta-analyses have found that creatine increases strength in healthy weight training athletes, something you can't say for any other supplement that I know of. It has more solid scientific support than 99% of the supplements out there. Seriously, there's no reason not to take it (barring the individual who does not care about muscle at all and only wants to lose fat), even a few grams a day is quite beneficial.

Exactly

"In 24-hours, 46% of the ingested creatine was excreted. There was no change in creatine levels for placebo subjects. Creatinine levels remained the same within groups at the first and second collection times (p < 0.05). Our findings indicate that when supplementing with dosages of 0.1 g x kg(-1) lean body mass or between 6 and 8 g at a time, approximately half of the ingested creatine gets excreted."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...7&dopt=Abstract

Still, because it's both cheap and effective, there's no reason not to overshoot the mark, but 20 g daily is just absurd

I have not seen any scientific support for the idea of the "creatine non-responder" (admitedly, it is something I haven't looked into, but as far as I can tell it is not based on anything substantial).

Some people (such as "creatine non-responders") expect visible results from any supplement that is supposed to work - that's not how it works in the real world. Just like vitamin C is going to improve your health, but there's no way to tell just by taking it, that's why we have controlled studies.

Here's a quote from Terry Giles about the non-responder issue. It's in response to a guy who claimed not to have seen results from the his red russian anti-jube creatine gels, so take it with a grain of salt:

After loading, I took 1 to 1.5 teaspoons before and after a workout as well as the prescribed 1.5 teaspoons each day.
I took this crap for over 3 months, waste of money, didn't do a GD thing.

Yeah I can definetly sympathize with you. At least I didn't get cramps, just over 3 months of expensively bad tasting water.

The Usual, which other knockoff of creatine would work?
What are the main differences between Creatine and Creatine substitute brands?

Since you've taken kre-alkalyn, could you please describe what changes you've noticed and how significant they have been. For example, have your muscles gotten noticably larger?

Sorry, I haven't actually used kre-alkalyn, just haven't gotten around to it yet. I believe it is the only "creatine knockoff" that is worth anything though. Just look on the ingredient list of any creatine product and if it says "creatine monohydrate" put it back down. I'm pretty sure BSL www.blackstarlabs.com will be your best bet if you want to buy a kre-alkalyn product... let me know if it works for you, and I will probably try it as well

There is zero reason to believe buffered creatine is superior. The reason given is that it is more bioavailable. Even if that is the case, bioavailability is not a limiting factor for creatine mono anyway. It will still raise plasma levels as much as you need to. The limiting factor is creatine transport, kre-alkalyn does not change this.

From what I can tell, the micronized creatine is probably worth the extra 4-6% in cost, but other than that there is only anecdotal feedback on the other funny stuff. Also, administration with a carb source increases effectivity. Other than that, no big breakthroughs.

I'm not sure if micronized poses an advantage, other than less GI discomfort, but given the small price difference there's no reason not to use it.

In addition to carbs, a study about six months ago found ALA (1 g/day) to increase creatine uptake. I'm pretty sure it was funded by AST.

hey man..I founded the study!
http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=1&t=8538&hl=ala&