Hey all!

LOVING these forums so far!! Learned quite a bit already and I can see I'll be around for a while...

Anyway, I'm looking for more info on the "Fuck My Ass is Fat" Diet. For some reason, the search has an error when I try to type that in, hehe....

Has anyone tried this diet? How was the experience? And the results? Would you recommend it? Etc etc etc

I have never taken any sups besides stimulants, nootropics, and sleep-related stuff.

Any and all help on the diet, sups, or life in general would be much appreciated!

Thanks all!!

Did you check out Avant Lab's mag? The article pretty much tells u all the details.

also see this thread

http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=7&t=10284

Ahh thanks!! No wonder I couldn't search for it!

LOL--if you have any questions, please feel free to post them here.

Yes I do! I have a couple of issues actually, but let's start with the first:

So... it's become clear to me that I won't be able to start this plan for at least another few weeks due to my lack of supplement knowledge (when it comes to sups, I like to be responsible about things and not take anything until I completely understand everything about whichever supplement -- I researched the HELL out of ECY haha)

So I've been doing a lot of researching the past couple days... (I pretty much know ZERO about pro-hormones at the moment.. researching now! workin my way through the FAQ) Anyway, first question: I'm 19!!! (20 in Sept). Are pro-hormones ok for me, considering my age? (only used stims and sleep aids so far) And is this program ok for me, overall?

Thanks!!

(If you're really feelin helpful, GREAT!! MUCH more q's to come hehe..)

---

EDIT:

Ok I can't wait haha!

Second issue: which supplements are NECESSARY and which are just nice to have? Money is DEFINITELY an issue right now (starving student! hehe), but I'm looking to get a summer job pretty soon... thanks again!

Shit, after reading the FAQ... well, I probably COULD take prohormones but I actually don't WANT to as I don't want to risk anything, whether it be stunting my growth or any side effects (those scare me actually!)

Is it possible to do this diet w/o prohormones? Or... what do you think -- should I use PH or not?

What would you do?

All of the questions you ask (which supps are necessary, which not) I address in my article.

In terms of AAS/PHs, yes they are a necessary component of this diet. Given your age, and your admitted lack of supplement/training knowledge, I really dont recommend you undertake this plan at this time.

I'd advocate a more gradual approach.

Woah woah hold up, just because I don't know much about prohormones, don't confuse that with lack of training/nutrition knowledge! I know PLENTY on those issues, oh man... (Just had to clear that up so you guys don't get the wrong idea here hehe)

Ok.. Prohormones, not for me! (as of now)

What would happen, hypothetically of course, if I ran your plan EXACTLY but without the PH?

Just asking hypothetically here (can I pick your brain for a bit, if ya don't mind? )

What would happen...

lots of muscle loss, increased fatigue (beyond what would probably be experienced on androgens), loss of pumps, etc..

Not something I'd recommend.

I was afraid you'd say that, heh...

Well, is there any way to modify this program so as to not incur such muscle loss and still lose a lot of fat (albeit not as quickly obviously)?

Sure, I guess...though it wont be the same, at all.

TK, since you told the O/P to feel free posting even basic questions related to your plan here ... I've taken you at your word!

I'm interested in your views on a straight PSMF for those not using androgens (I do appreciate it's a key aspect to your plan). The aim being to maximise speedy fat loss but maintain LBM as far as is humanly possible ... so the standard holy grail in other words!

So, the plan would involve running 1.5g protein per lb LBM, EFA's (6g fish oil plus sesathin), fibrous veggies, and LG. No more no less. Training, 3 full-body w/o's per week, and ECA/nic (both for appetite suppression and to moderate catabolism). Obviously not a wise idea long-term, but perhaps to be used on a cyclical basis by those at moderate bf% (2 weeks on, week at maintenance, repeat)?

I've read the evidence that for some it works well, but perhaps better for those at higher bf%. Would love to understand your views though, since of course it flies in the face of your plan.

All about the learning, this place. Thanks for the teaching!

I think this could work well for those with meso and endomorphic tendencies, if cycled as you say. I think more muscle would be lost than on my plan, obviously, however I'm sure this could work for some under the right circumstances.

I would add LipoDerm-Ultra to the mix, for sure.

I'd also cycle the plan, as you say. 2 weeks on, 1 off could work for those at higher bodyfat percentages. For the leaner among us, 1on/1off would be wiser. Sub 10% bodyfat or so (for men), I dont think this plan would be beneficial to those not using androgens.

Hmmm, 10% for the guys equating to somewhere between 16-19% for the chickies perhaps? I really need some calipers, the Tanita random number generator just isn't cutting it here!

But I do have LipoDerm at least Your thinking here is that it would encourage fat loss versus lean to fuel the deficit? Or am I way off-track ...?

Yeah, I'd say those numbers for the chickies are about right

In terms of LipoDerm, your assumption is correct (greater control, to a degree).

Novo, sorry for asking, but what are PSMF and LG? (Someone should add them to the acronym thread!) I'm not sure what LG is, but I'm guessing PSMF is protein sparing modified fast? What are the general specifications for that (if that is what it stands for)?

Thanks!

Protein Sparing Modified Fast:

1.5g pro/lb
some fish oil
some leafy greens to keep you pooping
as few tag-along fats as possible (hope you like tuna)

and that's about it, diet-wise. Calories work out to be around 5-6 kcal/lb.

EC is a good addition, you'll probably want some kind of appetite suppresant (whatever works for you), androgens if you're concerned about muscle loss.

And then you suffer, bitch.

LG, dunno, since we're on Avant I'm assuming it's Leptigen but I'm not sure.

LG is Leptigen

How many grams of fat is desired per day?

And where is a good place to read up on the PSMF? (did a search, only 1 thread came up)

Want to learn more about this and check out all the details

AHAHHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH

As little as possible. The ideal PSMF would be 6-8 grams of fat from fish oil, and nothing else.

In practice that's not possible, since even tuna and chicken have some fat. But in general, you choose the leanest protein sources you can find, and you don't add any fat.



A pubmed search for "protein sparing modified fast" turns up 69 entries. Most of the studies are on obese patients - that's who the diet was designed for, though it'll work perfectly fine for leaner folk.

Practically speaking, there are a couple of people currently documenting PSMF diets on Lyle McDonald's board, http://www.bodyrecomposition.com

What is the downside of doing this? I mean, why not ALWAYS do this for any cutting diet to avoid all the calories from dietary fat (IE instead of flax oil, nuts, good fats, etc)?

BTW I have been incorporating this over the past few days, although w/o the fish oil (dammit, haven't had time to go shopping this week)

Thanks Chupacabra!

The big one is adherance.

It's no fun at all to stick to such an extreme diet for any sort of length of time. I have pretty bitching dietary mojo (I starved the shit out of myself a few years ago, lost 100 lbs in ~6 months, so I know hungry), and I don't like staying on PSMFs for more than a week or two.

There are a couple of other points, but I have to go to work.

I AM at work, hehehe....

So ok, theres the inherent difficulties of consuming small amounts of fish oil in place of normal dietary fat. But what other negatives are there? I mean, can I ALWAYS do this when I'm cutting? -- haha, if I have the willpower, of course

Yeah, this can be your go-to cutting plan.

I wouldnt advise you use a plan like this for much more than 2, maybe 3 weeks.

Well, it makes sense that there would be some issues that pop up. First off, in the medium-term, T3/metabolic rate is going to take a huge hit. So will test and various other hormones I would think. (Although both will be dependent on bodyfat -- I'm talking about trying this at sub-15%, since it basically is the perfect diet as far as I can see for BF >15%)

The second major problem I see is that it seems like muscle loss would become an issue, due to lack of ability to mobilize FFAs. I mean, if you eat some carbs, you get insulin's anti-catabolic effects, if you go CKD-style, you get excellent FFA mobilization, but with a PSMF, it's like a CKD except there's need for even more FFA mobilization. So, I'd imagine lipolysis could become rate-limiting. But that's just my own speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.

Lyle, who's sort of been pushing this diet lately, has however suggested that even at lower bodyfat %ages, it shouldn't cause significantly more muscle loss than standard dieting. It's not going to retain muscle like a really good CKD like the UD2, but due to muscle loss being mostly genetic (according to him, and AFAIK, several others), the larger deficit wouldn't necessarily cause more muscle loss than a smaller deficit in a standard diet.

Hmm, still haven't been able to get to the store to get fish oil caps, but without them I'm reaching about 15-20 grams of fat per day (from the small random amounts in tuna etc)

How much fat does one really need to get all the benefits of dietary fat?

- Well... Actually, I mean, how much fat is needed so as just to AVOID those negatives? (Or minimize them) As well: how often?? (In other words, is it necessary to consume dietary fats in normal amounts EVERY day or would the benefits/negatives occur if they drop for 3+ days or something?)

- And would one have to incorporate other types of fats or could this be achieved by just increasing fish oil intake per day?

- And finally, is it possible to do some sort of a CKD -- FOR FAT??? hehe, like on carb-up/cheat day or whatever, can you just eat all your (good/bad) dietary fats then and be set for the week in terms of fat benefits/avoidance of negatives?

(Heh, I feel like I should make a whole new thread on this dietary fat issue...)

Oh yeah one more: any MORE negatives associated with low levels of dietary fat?

THANKS!!!

Dietary fat has little to no protein sparing ability, as it doesn't show up in the bloodstream as FFA anyhow.



Pushing? No.
Offering as a possibility? Yes.

Lyle

But the fat would imply less deficit, which would be somewhat protein sparing, no? Or do you actually think deficit is more or less irrelevant here?

As for the 'pushing' -- my apologies, it was a bad choice of words. I merely meant that you had suggested it might be a good way to diet conventionally.

I highly suggest you do some reading.

The dietary fat question is really one for someone like Lyle. My understanding was that it was not a 'threshold' (i.e. a certain amount of dietary fat that negates the problems) -- it's more that, the greater the deficit, the more problems you encounter with muscle loss and metabolic slowdown. From Lyle's comment, it sounds like he's suggesting otherwise, but I'm not sure...

As for the fat benefits vs. negatives, it's really just acting as caloric ballast either way. Higher fat, in the (very) long term, will help with the hormonal profile (>50-60g/day), but in terms of the PSMF, it's really best to keep it to fish oil + tag-along fats, if that's what you mean.

I'm not really sure what you're asking in some of your questions, but pushing fish oil too high could be rather anti-anabolic and I'd imagine could cause some muscle loss. I think 6g fish oil/day is usually considered enough, but it's sort of individual.

A CKD with fat would just make you, well, fat. The key to the CKD is glycogen depletion followed by repletion. There's no such analog for fats.