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Spook
Well not to toot my own horn but it apears that someone out there agrees with my theory about the brain prioritizing its own nutrient usage to "eat" the body in times of caloric withdrawl, and that it is this mechanism that control all metabolic adaptations to caloric restriction.

QUOTE
Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 2004 Apr;28(2):143-80.  Related Articles, Links 

 
The selfish brain: competition for energy resources.

Peters A, Schweiger U, Pellerin L, Hubold C, Oltmanns KM, Conrad M, Schultes B, Born J, Fehm HL.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Luebeck, Ratzeburger Allee 160, D-23538 Germany.

The brain occupies a special hierarchical position in the organism. It is separated from the general circulation by the blood-brain barrier, has high energy consumption and a low energy storage capacity, uses only specific substrates, and it can record information from the peripheral organs and control them. Here we present a new paradigm for the regulation of energy supply within the organism. The brain gives priority to regulating its own adenosine triphosphate (ATP) concentration. In that postulate, the peripheral energy supply is only of secondary importance. The brain has two possibilities to ensure its energy supply: allocation or intake of nutrients. The term 'allocation' refers to the allocation of energy resources between the brain and the periphery. Neocortex and the limbic-hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal (LHPA) system control the allocation and intake. In order to keep the energy concentrations constant, the following mechanisms are available to the brain: (1) high and low-affinity ATP-sensitive potassium channels measure the ATP concentration in neurons of the neocortex and generate a 'glutamate command' signal. This signal affects the brain ATP concentration by locally (via astrocytes) stimulating glucose uptake across the blood-brain barrier and by systemically (via the LHPA system) inhibiting glucose uptake into the muscular and adipose tissue. (2) High-affinity mineralocorticoid and low-affinity glucocorticoid receptors determine the state of balance, i.e. the setpoint, of the LHPA system. This setpoint can permanently and pathologically be displaced by extreme stress situations (chronic metabolic and psychological stress, traumatization, etc.), by starvation, exercise, infectious diseases, hormones, drugs, substances of abuse, or chemicals disrupting the endocrine system. Disorders in the 'energy on demand' process or the LHPA-system can influence the allocation of energy and in so doing alter the body mass of the organism. In summary, the presented model includes a newly discovered 'principle of balance' of how pairs of high and low-affinity receptors can originate setpoints in biological systems. In this 'Selfish Brain Theory', the neocortex and limbic system play a central role in the pathogenesis of diseases such as anorexia nervosa and obesity.

PMID: 15172762 [PubMed - in process]


Man I am on a role. First with the whole TAG causes leptin resistance and now someone else agrees with my gluco-static brain metabolic regulation theory.

It might not have been aparent from my phenogen writeup but if you look at the date of the study on TAG causeing leptin resistance you will see that it was only published in april of this year. I had hypothesized about this over a year ago which is when I started hunting down DGAT inhibitors.

Now I jsut have to wait and see if my theories on RAAS are correct.
Kevin From Lyle's Board
Do you mind me asking, what are your theories on RAAS?
Spook
I think RAAS does many things. Specifically I am allmost completely convinced that it is how sex hormones determine fat distrobution.

More importantly though I think it determines genetic suceptability to how f'ed up the HPA can get.

I also think RAAS determines something rather interesting. You see jsut about every person falls in to one of two camps. Those that shown PVN overdrive where it jsut goes nutts and burns out (if over weight or dieting), and those that show PVN slowdown where it shuts off. I think RAAS activity determines which group an individual falls in to.

I also think RAAS is intimantly connected to how prone one is to addictive behavior patters, substances of abuse, risk seeking, sterss disorders, depression and obesity.
BigSkeptic
QUOTE(Spook @ Jun 18 2004, 02:00 PM)

I also think RAAS is intimantly connected to how prone one is to addictive behavior patters, substances of abuse, risk seeking, sterss disorders, depression and obesity.

so if I am highly prone to addictive behavior, substance abuse, and excessive risk seeking whats this say about me?
Supnut
QUOTE(BigSkeptic @ Jun 18 2004, 02:56 PM)
QUOTE(Spook @ Jun 18 2004, 02:00 PM)

I also think RAAS is intimantly connected to how prone one is to addictive behavior patters, substances of abuse, risk seeking, sterss disorders, depression and obesity.

so if I am highly prone to addictive behavior, substance abuse, and excessive risk seeking whats this say about me?

You should just say, "no"
mechaman
There was a news report today that researchers had put 'monogamous' mouse genes into a 'promiscuous' mouse, and made it 'monogamous' - as long as they don't put a 'likes flat chested women' gene in me, I'm O.K. with that .. laugh.gif
Spook
QUOTE
so if I am highly prone to addictive behavior, substance abuse, and excessive risk seeking whats this say about me?


That you have a defect in D2 signaling in the PFC, aka the "Reward deficiet disorder". Generally caused by lots of stuff the the common ones are a rare genetic polymorphism in D2 receptors or chronic stress/abuse.

I think RAAS a determines how susceptable one is to this state when under chronic stress. IOW when under chronic stress/abuse/trauma some people develop this disorder others do not. I think RAAS determines this.

It basically determines just how easy it is to mess up the HPA.
BigSkeptic
QUOTE(Spook @ Jun 18 2004, 08:19 PM)
QUOTE
so if I am highly prone to addictive behavior, substance abuse, and excessive risk seeking whats this say about me?


That you have a defect in D2 signaling in the PFC, aka the "Reward deficiet disorder". Generally caused by lots of stuff the the common ones are a rare genetic polymorphism in D2 receptors or chronic stress/abuse.

I think RAAS a determines how susceptable one is to this state when under chronic stress. IOW when under chronic stress/abuse/trauma some people develop this disorder others do not. I think RAAS determines this.

It basically determines just how easy it is to mess up the HPA.

Thats interesting. I've always had problems with being a bit obsessive about things, but since about age 20 its been a lot worse. Thats about the time I started working as a paramedic while getting my BS in BIology and Chemistry.... SO maybe the increase in stress really set it off in addition to a genetic predisposition? I guess I shouldn't expect to have much success quitting smoking since I start medschool in about 4 weeks huh....
Spook
QUOTE
SO maybe the increase in stress really set it off in addition to a genetic predisposition?


Thats what I think anyway.

I think the ACE polymorphism determines most of this stuff. This is one reason the article I am writing on this stuff has to be so damn long. Just as my theory about the brain "eating" the body while dieting was unproven at the time. So I had to take a long as time to explain why I thought that was the case and to provide evidence of it. After all that was the central hypothesis behind leptigen. Fix the brain and your wont suffer metabolic slow down or muscle loss.

My theories on ACE and RAAS are also completely unproven as was my theory on TAG and leptin resistance. So its taking forever to provide supporting evidence. It dosen't help that RAAS is about a 100 times more cimplicated than Leptin and metabolic regulation.

I think that at least in cuacasions that the ACE genotype determines some very stereotypical traits in individuals and thus I feel its going to be very controversial when published.

For example I think individuals with the ACE D/D poly morphism generally start out fairly lean and muscular when young. they are more alpha male types, with a penchant for risk taking behavior, over use of substances of abuse, and depression.

Then later in life I think they are more prone to putting on weight particularly big giant beer bellies. Generally have problems with cardio vascular disease and diabetes and have shortened life spans.

On the other hand I think people with the I/I phenotype generally have soft physiques, store fat all over or have more female style fat distrobution. Like guys with chest fat problems or guys that store fat in the but and thighs. Generally are more laid back and less "alphaish". Have less problems with depression of substances of abuse and generally do not develop diabetes even if over weight. Also they tend not to develop abdominal beer bellies and isntead store that fat all over.
Kevin From Lyle's Board
This is rather interesting. I look forward to hearing what you uncover. Where do you go from here? Are you looking to fix any defects via supplements or drugs? What is your time-table?

I have to tell you that should you be able to grasp this situation and offer possible resolutions, it would be a monumental accomplishment.
Enigma76
[quote=Spook,Jun 19 2004, 12:33 PM] [QUOTE]
On the other hand I think people with the I/I phenotype generally have soft physiques, store fat all over or have more female style fat distrobution. Like guys with chest fat problems or guys that store fat in the but and thighs. Generally are more laid back and less "alphaish". Have less problems with depression of substances of abuse and generally do not develop diabetes even if over weight. Also they tend not to develop abdominal beer bellies and isntead store that fat all over. [/quote]
That describes me to a T.
Spencer
Are you referring to the renin-aldosterone-angiotensin-system?

ACE = angiotensin converting enzyme?

If so, how does an angiotensin II antagonist fits into all this?

I will be a subject for a study that measures the pharmcokinetics of an angiotensin II antagonist (Olmesartan medoxomil) next week. I suppose a single oral dose wouldnt have any significant effects.
Spook
QUOTE
Are you referring to the renin-aldosterone-angiotensin-system?

ACE = angiotensin converting enzyme?

If so, how does an angiotensin II antagonist fits into all this?


yes and yes.

Depends on which kind AT1 or AT2 receptor antagonist.
Spook
QUOTE
Where do you go from here? Are you looking to fix any defects via supplements or drugs? What is your time-table?


Thats the rub. I have no idea what kind of advice I can offer outside of saying that intermitant use of an ACE inhibitor should offer benefit to anyone on either extreme end of the body fat distrobution spectrum (either severe beer belly or severe femoral fat distrobution).

problem is ACE seems to be involved in strength gains and possibly even hypertrophy (though I am more causious in saying its involved in hypertrophy). So inhibiting it could reduce gains and make someone more like an I/I individual who is soft all over and I am pretty sure people don't want that no matter how healthy it is. Well except for some 40+ year olds who have giant beer bellies.
Kellyb
QUOTE
You see jsut about every person falls in to one of two camps. Those that shown PVN overdrive where it jsut goes nutts and burns out (if over weight or dieting), and those that show PVN slowdown where it shuts off. I think RAAS activity determines which group an individual falls in to.


I think the PVN going nuts and burning out has been covered pretty well by your leptin write-up and Par's absolved write-up. I'd like to see more on the PVN slowing down. What central differences are there that contribute to this?
Spook
ok here is the short course.

The PVN is a multi innput system. But most of the inputs determine internal state. What determines activity is basically the following euqation.

PVN activity = (f(x))(angiotensin II signal) - (g(y))(VMH derrived GABA signal).

where f(x) and g(y) are some kind of well behaved function.

The rest of the inputs determine internal state. IOW they dtermine how much of one substance vs another is made for any about of given activity.

Now if the first term in the equation above is higher than the second term then one is prone to burn out. on the other hand if the second term is greater then one is prone to slow down.

Interestingly enough is that both groups on either end are prone to obesity and that there endocrine profile looks similar. But diagnostic tests show differences. for example both groups show depressed SNS activity. However the burn out group shows decreased SNS because of catacholamine depletion where as the slow down group shows reduced synthesis. They also show differences in the CRH/DEX test that measures HPA sensitivity.

Several times before I have talked about who I think bromo works. I think it mainly works for the slowdon group. The slowdown group shows a defect in the metabolism of NE in the VMH. In otherwords in the VMH NE is now borken down and eliminated so it keeps the VMH pumping away all the time but bromo treatment corrects this.

recall from my articles that the equation for the VMH is basically.

VMH activity = ((h(a))(gulocse signal)-((g(cool.gif)(leptin signal)

It apears that its not the glucose signal that is the problem but the leptin one. Sudies on ob/ob mice treated with bromo and other dopaminergics show this. So its lack of leptin or decreased leptin sensitivity in the VMH that causes slowdown.

The other crowd shows burn out which I covered pretty well in that last article in the leptin series.
Kellyb
Ok thanks Spook. I follow what you're saying. After lots of observation the last year or so I had kindve figured exactly what you said here:

QUOTE
Interestingly enough is that both groups on either end are prone to obesity and that there endocrine profile looks similar. But diagnostic tests show differences. for example both groups show depressed SNS activity. However the burn out group shows decreased SNS because of catacholamine depletion where as the slow down group shows reduced synthesis. They also show differences in the CRH/DEX test that measures HPA sensitivity.


So would those with lower Angiotension II signal tend to have low blood pressure, low sex hormones, mild mannered mood, slow twitch muscle expression etc?
Spook
QUOTE
So would those with lower Angiotension II signal tend to have low blood pressure, low sex hormones, mild mannered mood, slow twitch muscle expression etc?


well except for the sex hormones part yes. RAAS seems to modulate local sex hormone action both test and estrogen. From population based studis though it does not show a significant trend in altered plasma levels. So it more tan likely affects receptors or binding proteins or something in local tissue. Thats one of the things taht makes RAAS so hard to reason about and figure out. You see RAAS has a systemic component that is generally meassured when looking at CVD or blood pressure but several different tissues in the body have a fully functonal local RAS system that seems to be intimantly involved in tissue proliferation and differentiation patterns.

Also the whole slow twitch/fast twitch I am not completely convinced really happens all that much in humans. Lets just say I am skeptical for many reasons. Mostly because once I started digging in to RAAS it be came aparent that this time around humans and rat tissue samples show dramatic and some time completely oppisite reactions to RAAS. Allmost all of the studies on RAAS and muscle fiber type are in rats. So I am hesitant to apply any rat research until it has been duplicated in humans.
dashforce
QUOTE(Spook @ Jun 18 2004, 04:00 PM) [snapback]161055[/snapback]
I think RAAS does many things. Specifically I am allmost completely convinced that it is how sex hormones determine fat distrobution.


Years later...

I just got a newsletter from Lyle McD that said he's about to release a new book(let?) about stubborn fat. He mentioned that sex hormones don't determine fat distribution.

Well, reviewing at what he said, he might have been sufficiently ambiguous for him and Spook to both be right...

QUOTE(LyleMcD)
In general there are clear gender differences that show up at puberty, suggesting that sex hormones play a role in how fat cells develop. And there is much truth to this. It turns out that if you take a fat cell from a man's thigh and a woman's thigh, they are functionally identical and essentially indistinguishable physiologically. Even though the man generally has extremely low levels of estrogen.

The difference, practically, is that men don't generally store fat in their legs and women do (i.e. the fat cells in a man's legs are emptier than in the woman's). As I mentioned before, men who store fat in their lower body have the same problems as women to get rid of it. But most men don't.

The same holds true for visceral or abdominal fat from a woman versus a man. The female's visceral/ab fat is physiologically identical to the man's, although she has very low levels of testosterone. Hence, on average, she won't store much triglyceride in those fat cells.

What this suggests is that fat cells in different areas of the body (which, again, are found in both men and women; the difference is in whether men and women actually store calories there as adults) have certain physiological characteristics that occur irrespective of the hormonal setting. So while the hormonal setting may affect where ingested calories get sent, they aren't really controlling the underlying physiology of the fat cells.

Which is fundamentally why blocking estrogen doesn't fix the lower body fat problem. Lower body fat cells act a certain way whether estrogen is present or not, that's how they are genetically wired to act. The same goes for abdominal fat. Regardless of the person's testosterone levels, they are wired to be a certain way. Now it's time to learn what that wiring is and what makes stubborn fat cells stubborn.



Can anyone else add to this? Guesses as to what Lyle's thinking?

EDIT: Maybe I should have made a new thread, as this is a bit off-topic...
liorrh
Lyle is again DUMBing down things. lets wait and see.
Benson
QUOTE(dashforce @ Mar 15 2008, 12:43 AM) [snapback]465968[/snapback]
Can anyone else add to this? Guesses as to what Lyle's thinking?


For what its worth, men who undergo sex reassignment experience a redistribution of fat into a typical female pattern.
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