Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: More good news about buffers
Mind and Muscle Forums > Chemically Correct > Advanced Hypothesis, Theory & Discussion
Spook
QUOTE
J Appl Physiol. 2004 Jun;96(6):2050-6. Epub 2004 Feb 06. Related Articles, Links 

 
Metabolic effects of induced alkalosis during progressive forearm exercise to fatigue.

Raymer GH, Marsh GD, Kowalchuk JM, Thompson RT.

Department of Medical Biophysics, The University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada. graymer@lri.sjhc.london.on.ca

Metabolic alkalosis induced by sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO(3)) ingestion has been shown to enhance performance during brief high-intensity exercise. The mechanisms associated with this increase in performance may include increased muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) breakdown, muscle glycogen utilization, and plasma lactate (Lac(-)(pl)) accumulation. Together, these changes would imply a shift toward a greater contribution of anaerobic energy production, but this statement has been subject to debate. In the present study, subjects (n = 6) performed a progressive wrist flexion exercise to volitional fatigue (0.5 Hz, 14-21 min) in a control condition (Con) and after an oral dose of NaHCO(3) (Alk: 0.3 g/kg; 1.5 h before testing) to evaluate muscle metabolism over a complete range of exercise intensities. Phosphorus-31 magnetic resonance spectroscopy was used to continuously monitor intracellular pH, [PCr], [P(i)], and [ATP] (brackets denote concentration). Blood samples drawn from a deep arm vein were analyzed with a blood gas-electrolyte analyzer to measure plasma pH, Pco(2), and [Lac(-)](pl), and plasma [HCO(3)(-)] was calculated from pH and Pco(2). NaHCO(3) ingestion resulted in an increased (P < 0.05) plasma pH and [HCO(3)(-)] throughout rest and exercise. Time to fatigue and peak power output were increased (P < 0.05) by approximately 12% in Alk. During exercise, a delayed (P < 0.05) onset of intracellular acidosis (1.17 +/- 0.26 vs. 1.28 +/- 0.22 W, Con vs. Alk) and a delayed (P < 0.05) onset of rapid increases in the [P(i)]-to-[PCr] ratio (1.21 +/- 0.30 vs. 1.30 +/- 0.30 W) were observed in Alk. No differences in total [H(+)], [P(i)], or [Lac(-)](pl) accumulation were detected. In conclusion, NaHCO(3) ingestion was shown to increase plasma pH at rest, which resulted in a delayed onset of intracellular acidification during incremental exercise. Conversely, NaHCO(3) was not associated with increased [Lac(-)](pl) accumulation or PCr breakdown.

PMID: 14766777 [PubMed - in process]


It did not alter lactic acid acumulation but it did increase peak power output and time to failure. Considering how cheap backing soda is in bulk it might not be a bad idea to give it a shot if you are not allready.

I do wonder about this study a bit though because they did not compare another mineral. Given sodiums involvement in motor-ion channels it might have been the sodium and not the alkanosis that increase muscular performance.
BigSkeptic
QUOTE(Spook @ Jun 24 2004, 08:13 AM)

I do wonder about this study a bit though because they did not compare another mineral. Given sodiums involvement in motor-ion channels it might have been the sodium and not the alkanosis that increase muscular performance.

hmmm...do you think calcium carbonate might illicit a similair response due to its major contribution to muscle contraction? Would for sure be interesting to see a follow up study w/different group 1 and 2 metals....
D Sade
I definitely notice enhanced strength when taking larger doses of Calcium Carbonate about an hour before workout.
KMW
QUOTE(D Sade @ Jun 24 2004, 10:42 AM)
I definitely notice enhanced strength when taking larger doses of Calcium Carbonate about an hour before workout.

What dose do you condsider adiquite in this regard?

Kevin.
D Sade
I take 1 or 2 600mg tablets.
Spook
QUOTE
hmmm...do you think calcium carbonate might illicit a similair response due to its major contribution to muscle contraction?


Yes I think so. You have read the gianormous calcium thread havent you? Can I prove it with studies? No. That is why I wish they would have tried different alkaline metals like calcium or potasium. Though thats not really possible as a dose that high of either of those is not good.

Remember in this study they are basically ingesting 30g of backing soda prior to exercise. Thats far more buffer than a single tumms and a hell of alot of sodium.
shpongled
Discussion of dose/response from my article:

QUOTE
Studies that have compared doses indicate that the optimal dose for performance is in the .4-.6 g/kg range. One study found that .6 g/kg of sodium citrate lead to the optimal changes in blood pH, while another found improved one minute spring performance in the .3-.5 g/kg range, with the greatest effect at .5 g/kg [1]. Another study reports that .5 g/kg sodium citrate is the ideal amount for changing blood pH [2]. For sodium bicarbonate, the lowest reported effective dose was .2 g/kg in one trial [1]. However, other literature indicates that .3 g/kg is not as effective as higher doses [3], and most studies utilize .3-.5 g/kg. It would appear that from a performance standpoint, .5 g/kg of either substance is optimal, while .3 g/kg, and possibly .2 g/kg, can still be of benefit. Doses lower than this are unlikely to change pH enough to significantly improve performance.

Research has also been done on the optimal timing of ingestion, which falls in the range of 1-3 hours before exercise [7]. In one study, ingestion of .5 g/kg sodium citrate lead to an optimal alkalotic state 100-120 minutes after ingestion [2] – but one must keep in mind that having this period coincide with the later period of exercise would be ideal, so for a 45 minute training session, for example, one would want to consume the buffering agent 80-90 minutes before exercise.

The performance standpoint is not the only one that should be taken into consideration. Reports indicate that gastrointestinal discomfort is quite common, although it generally occurs in the first hour after ingestion, and therefore shouldn't coincide with the exercise period [2]. The best way to reduce this side effect is by lowering the dose. Reports of gastrointestinal discomfort and stomach cramps are much more common after .6 g/kg sodium citrate than .4 g/kg (five of eight subjects complaining versus two of eight) [1]. This effect may also be worse with sodium bicarbonate [2]. In three trials with .5 g/kg sodium citrate, one reports GI discomfort in 3 of 8 subjects while the other two report no problems [2]. It would appear that .4 g/kg sodium citrate is a relatively comfortable dose, with .5 g/kg still being tolerable to many. Since individual reactions can vary, experimentation is necessary to determine the highest tolerable dose.

A final issue is whether or not chronic ingestion is superior to acute ingestion. To answer this question, a study was conducted comparing .5 g/kg sodium bicarbonate acutely or over a period of six days on 90 second maximal cycling performance. Both groups had improved performance, but performance was still increased two days after chronic supplementation was discontinued [8]. This indicates that chronic ingestion of buffering agents may yield a greater and longer lasting effect. It is also possible that the required dosage needed for a benefit is lower with chronic ingestion.
virtualcyber
shpongled:

.5 g / kg, that is 50 g for 100 kg man.

50 g / week = 7 g ED.

You sure this is right?
This seems rather high.
shpongled
No, not .5 g/kg per week, .5 g/kg daily for six days. Sorry, realized that is worded really badly. I'm sure this is correct.

Lower amounts will still offer a benefit I'm sure. Just not enough to be statistically significant with the sample sizes they usually use in these studies (which tend to be small).

Here is the article BTW:

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=50

Spook's concern about sodium is also addressed although it is with different exercise protocols. Sodium chloride is commonly used for placebo.
meathead1987
QUOTE(D Sade @ Jun 24 2004, 02:29 PM)
I take 1 or 2 600mg tablets.

A few months ago, I was wondering why my strength was always greater in the mornings than afternoons. I just put it down to having more energy. I had no idea the 2g CaCO3 I was taking before hand(at breakfast) could enhance strength.
BigSkeptic
QUOTE(meathead1987 @ Jun 25 2004, 06:20 AM)
QUOTE(D Sade @ Jun 24 2004, 02:29 PM)
I take 1 or 2 600mg tablets.

A few months ago, I was wondering why my strength was always greater in the mornings than afternoons. I just put it down to having more energy. I had no idea the 2g CaCO3 I was taking before hand(at breakfast) could enhance strength.

take it before bed, you'll absorb more! And due to the nature of the role of Ca+2 in muscle contraction I would imagine it would be an additive effect, much like creatine, not instantaneous. I would guess increases levels of Ca+2 in the body would equal more Ca+2 in the sarcoplasmic reticulum which would accumulate over time. Nothing to prove this, just speculation.

SPook, I'll check out the calcium thread. I haven't been reading here long. I did find the acetic acid / citric acid thread interesting, although a little anti-climactic smile.gif
meathead1987
QUOTE(BigSkeptic @ Jun 25 2004, 06:58 AM)
QUOTE(meathead1987 @ Jun 25 2004, 06:20 AM)
QUOTE(D Sade @ Jun 24 2004, 02:29 PM)
I take 1 or 2 600mg tablets.

A few months ago, I was wondering why my strength was always greater in the mornings than afternoons. I just put it down to having more energy. I had no idea the 2g CaCO3 I was taking before hand(at breakfast) could enhance strength.

take it before bed, you'll absorb more! And due to the nature of the role of Ca+2 in muscle contraction I would imagine it would be an additive effect, much like creatine, not instantaneous. I would guess increases levels of Ca+2 in the body would equal more Ca+2 in the sarcoplasmic reticulum which would accumulate over time. Nothing to prove this, just speculation.

SPook, I'll check out the calcium thread. I haven't been reading here long. I did find the acetic acid / citric acid thread interesting, although a little anti-climactic smile.gif

I take 2g in the morning, and 2g pre bed biggrin.gif with ample magnesium and vitamin D also.
triguy
the guys over at Animals board like potassium citrate, any thougts?
Spook
K-citrate is fine but I would not use large doeses because excess potasium increases basal insulin levels. Better to stick with sodium and calcium and jsut use a little potasium.
shpongled
QUOTE(triguy @ Jun 25 2004, 10:06 AM)
the guys over at Animals board like potassium citrate, any thougts?

I have seen people from that board claim that potassium citrate is superior for buffering, this is not the case. See:

Urol Res. 2001 Oct;29(5):295-302. A comparison of the effects of potassium citrate and sodium bicarbonate in the alkalinization of urine in homozygous cystinuria. Fjellstedt E, Denneberg T, Jeppsson JO, Tiselius HG.


Also high doses of potassium are not a good idea before exercise. I have only seen one case report from cardiac problems arising in a healthy individual due to high dose potassium (5 g I think) combined with exercise but I don't think one should press their luck. Also potassium can cause quite a bit of GI discomfort which is already going to be a problem.
virtualcyber
QUOTE(shpongled @ Jun 25 2004, 08:37 AM)
No, not .5 g/kg per week, .5 g/kg daily for six days. Sorry, realized that is worded really badly. I'm sure this is correct.

That is 50 g daily for 100 kg person.

Are you SURE about this? 50 g?????
Viator
QUOTE(triguy @ Jun 25 2004, 10:06 AM)
the guys over at Animals board like potassium citrate, any thougts?

I've had nothing but problems w/ potassium citrate at adequate doses. cramping, diarhea, etc. other endurance atheletes and bb'ers have said the same thing: they either had bad effects or none at all. I think Animal is just trying to hawk his potassium citrate powder. wouldn't be the first time.

some people swear by it though. of course, some people swear by a lot of useless things.
shpongled
QUOTE(virtualcyber @ Jun 25 2004, 03:29 PM)
QUOTE(shpongled @ Jun 25 2004, 08:37 AM)
No, not .5 g/kg per week, .5 g/kg daily for six days. Sorry, realized that is worded really badly. I'm sure this is correct.

That is 50 g daily for 100 kg person.

Are you SURE about this? 50 g?????

Yes

Most of the athletes in these studies probably did not weigh 100 kg though. Remember in the old buffering thread at CEM Torsten (sp?) recommended 20 g citrates per day. A lot of people said this seemed like an excessive amount but it is actually on the lower end for this purpose. 10 g will still provide buffering capacity but probably not to the degree that we are looking for to improve performance.
Spencer
Anyone of you currently using a buffering mix??

I cant find potassium bicarbonate. Using sodium bicarbonate will be too much sodium. Using calcium and magnesium citrate for the effective buffering dose will mean too much calcium and magnesium as well (5g each will still be alot).

How do you configure this??


David, can use the supps in Mike's store as an example.
shpongled
Well the best I can think of is

1 teaspoon Now Magnesium Citrate (450 mg magnesium)
1 tablespoon Now Calcium Citrate (2100 mg calcium)
1 teapoon sodium bicarbonate (1200 mg sodium)

I think this is ~19 g of powder. If you are 200 lbs. this would be .2 g/kg.
champs
http://www.whas.com.au/shop/products/cal_c...aa0a7def62a4052

would this work as a calcium citrate source? it's dirt cheap, none of the other ingredients would interfer?
shpongled
QUOTE(champs @ Jul 1 2004, 06:34 PM)
http://www.whas.com.au/shop/products/cal_c...aa0a7def62a4052

would this work as a calcium citrate source? it's dirt cheap, none of the other ingredients would interfer?

I don't think you would want to use this. It would involve taking a ton of magnesium and copper. Also compared to calcium citrate powder the price isn't all that good.
champs
yeh can't seem to find somewhere in backward australia that sells just calcium citrate powder.
Spook
You don't have citrical. That's at every local drug store here.
Spook
You don't have citrical. That's at every local drug store here.
champs
yeh found that brand finally, 4 grams 1 hour before training 2 grams before bed sound about right?
Delphinus
QUOTE(champs @ Jul 2 2004, 02:16 PM)
yeh can't seem to find somewhere in backward australia that sells just calcium citrate powder.

Nutralife Super Calcium Complex is in tablet form and goes for about $AU20 for 250tabs containing ~1.2g CC each (among other things).
champs
thats full of zinc magnesium and other stuff i imagine that could course problems in higher doses (which are required to get enough citrate in the first place I think)
champs
whats the recommended dosing for this citracal if there is 1.2 grams of cal citrate per tablet? Do you count the elemental calcium content? eg 2grams a day total elemental?
=w=
QUOTE(shpongled @ Jun 27 2004, 08:41 PM)
Well the best I can think of is

1 teaspoon Now Magnesium Citrate (450 mg magnesium)
1 tablespoon Now Calcium Citrate (2100 mg calcium)
1 teapoon sodium bicarbonate (1200 mg sodium)

I think this is ~19 g of powder. If you are 200 lbs. this would be .2 g/kg.

For those that have experimented with sodium bicarbonate, at what dosage did you cross the threshold of uncomfortable "bathroom problems". I'd like to try this out since I take cal and mag citrate anyhow but don't want to be running back to the locker room between every set.
ergoman500
"For those that have experimented with sodium bicarbonate, at what dosage did you cross the threshold of uncomfortable "bathroom problems". I'd like to try this out since I take cal and mag citrate anyhow but don't want to be running back to the locker room between every set. "

For the last ~10 years or so, I have used ~8-11 grams of sodium bicarbonate ~2 hours pre-work with great results.

I would say I had diarrhea/stomach upset around 10% of the time using this protocol...

The use of sodium bicarbonate w/o other buffers makes the likelihood of stomach upset/nausea etc. more likely in my experience...
=w=
QUOTE(ergoman500 @ Jul 4 2004, 11:34 AM)
"For those that have experimented with sodium bicarbonate, at what dosage did you cross the threshold of uncomfortable "bathroom problems". I'd like to try this out since I take cal and mag citrate anyhow but don't want to be running back to the locker room between every set. "

For the last ~10 years or so, I have used ~8-11 grams of sodium bicarbonate ~2 hours pre-work with great results.

I would say I had diarrhea/stomach upset around 10% of the time using this protocol...

The use of sodium bicarbonate w/o other buffers makes the likelihood of stomach upset/nausea etc. more likely in my experience...

Thanks, I guess it is still best to start on the low end and work up. Interesting that in conjunction with other buffers you have less problems even at the same dose.
shpongled
QUOTE(=w= @ Jul 4 2004, 06:16 AM)
QUOTE(shpongled @ Jun 27 2004, 08:41 PM)
Well the best I can think of is

1 teaspoon Now Magnesium Citrate (450 mg magnesium)
1 tablespoon Now Calcium Citrate (2100 mg calcium)
1 teapoon sodium bicarbonate (1200 mg sodium)

I think this is ~19 g of powder. If you are 200 lbs. this would be .2 g/kg.

For those that have experimented with sodium bicarbonate, at what dosage did you cross the threshold of uncomfortable "bathroom problems". I'd like to try this out since I take cal and mag citrate anyhow but don't want to be running back to the locker room between every set.

People who report this problem are usually taking it just before or half an hour before exercise. You should be taking it at least an hour, and probably at least an hour and a half before exercise. This will lessen the problem and also make it so it doesn't coincide with the point at which you are working out.
crimsonice5656
Could you achieve some of the same buffering effect by taking glutamine? I was thinking that would be one way to lower the doses of the citrates if they upset your stomach.
liorrh
yes, I believe you could, but its wastefull and overloads you with amonia byrpducts or whatever the term is.
Phosphate Bond
QUOTE(Spook @ Jun 24 2004, 09:13 AM) [snapback]162992[/snapback]


I do wonder about this study a bit though because they did not compare another mineral. Given sodiums involvement in motor-ion channels it might have been the sodium and not the alkanosis that increase muscular performance.


You are right the sodium could have been altering the resting membrane potential.

I think bicarbonate as a supplement is very dubious but under some circumstances could have short term benefits. If your kidney doesn't excrete it (dictated by its bicarbonate threshold) your lungs will begin retaining CO2 (an acid) in order to keep plasma ph in the narrow range it likes.

I've used Potasium citrate before also which actually alkalizes your urine and releases bicarbonate from your body.
eclypz
QUOTE(Phosphate Bond @ Oct 3 2006, 06:21 PM) [snapback]365026[/snapback]

You are right the sodium could have been altering the resting membrane potential.

I think bicarbonate as a supplement is very dubious but under some circumstances could have short term benefits. If your kidney doesn't excrete it (dictated by its bicarbonate threshold) your lungs will begin retaining CO2 (an acid) in order to keep plasma ph in the narrow range it likes.

I've used Potasium citrate before also which actually alkalizes your urine and releases bicarbonate from your body.


My mom was telling me about this the other night. She works on an ortho/neuro unit at a hospital and has had some issues with her patient's sleep apnea. She started talking about bicarbonate and I was all like..

Dude.... Wait...what?
eclypz
QUOTE(Phosphate Bond @ Oct 3 2006, 06:21 PM) [snapback]365026[/snapback]



I've used Potasium citrate before also which actually alkalizes your urine and releases bicarbonate from your body.


So trying to alkalyze your system isn't dubious, it's what you use to do this? Are the late night shows talking about how we are all too acidic and that's why we suck, are they speaking any truth?
Kimbo
How about something like Greens+? I would think this stuff would have an akalyzing effect, being veggie/fruit based.
methodice
How have peoples experiences been with buffers. I have not noticed endurance increases yet, though I may be underdosing.

Also where is shpongled: david tolson nowadays?
eclypz
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Oct 4 2006, 07:39 AM) [snapback]365125[/snapback]
How about something like Greens+? I would think this stuff would have an akalyzing effect, being veggie/fruit based.


I like Greens+ But I need to find a version without all the herbs in it. I don't need no stinking gingko biloba every damn time I need greens, not to mention the thirty bazillion other herbs they add so that people will get a zing from it and think it's because of the greens. I just want the greens thank you very much.

D Sade
QUOTE(eclypz @ May 9 2007, 08:49 AM) [snapback]400875[/snapback]
I like Greens+ But I need to find a version without all the herbs in it. I don't need no stinking gingko biloba every damn time I need greens, not to mention the thirty bazillion other herbs they add so that people will get a zing from it and think it's because of the greens. I just want the greens thank you very much.

Pretty sure the one we have headed to NP is what you are looking for.

Let me get an update on delivery.
Grassroots082
QUOTE(D Sade @ May 9 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]400876[/snapback]
Pretty sure the one we have headed to NP is what you are looking for.

Let me get an update on delivery.


Definately looking forward to this.
Spook
QUOTE
1: J Am Soc Nephrol. 2007 May;18(5):1426-36. Epub 2007 Apr 11. Links
Acidosis-sensing glutamine pump SNAT2 determines amino acid levels and mammalian target of rapamycin signalling to protein synthesis in L6 muscle cells.Evans K, Nasim Z, Brown J, Butler H, Kauser S, Varoqui H, Erickson JD, Herbert TP, Bevington A.
Department of Infection, Immunity and Inflammation, University of Leicester, John Walls Renal Unit, Leicester General Hospital, Leicester, United Kingdom.

Wasting of lean tissue as a consequence of metabolic acidosis is a serious problem in patients with chronic renal failure. A possible contributor is inhibition by low pH of the System A (SNAT2) transporter, which carries the amino acid L-glutamine (L-Gln) into muscle cells. The aim of this study was to determine the effect of selective SNAT2 inhibition on intracellular amino acid profiles and amino acid-dependent signaling through mammalian target of rapamycin in L6 skeletal muscle cells. Inhibition of SNAT2 with the selective competitive substrate methylaminoisobutyrate, metabolic acidosis (pH 7.1), or silencing SNAT2 expression with small interfering RNA all depleted intracellular L-Gln. SNAT2 inhibition also indirectly depleted other amino acids whose intracellular concentrations are maintained by the L-Gln gradient across the plasma membrane, notably the anabolic amino acid L-leucine. Consequently, SNAT2 inhibition strongly impaired signaling through mammalian target of rapamycin to ribosomal protein S6 kinase, ribosomal protein S6, and 4E-BP1, leading to impairment of protein synthesis comparable with that induced by rapamycin. It is concluded that even though SNAT2 is only one of several L-Gln transporters in muscle, it may determine intracellular anabolic amino acid levels, regulating the amino acid signaling that affects protein mass, nucleotide/nucleic acid metabolism, and cell growth.

PMID: 17429052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Interesting that other transporters don't pick up the slack when SNAT2 is reduced. Still moral of the story is acidosis is bad news.
Colin
Bumping old posts I find interesting/research worthy....
Stay Puft
QUOTE(Colin @ Feb 6 2008, 02:20 PM) [snapback]455160[/snapback]
Bumping old posts I find interesting/research worthy....


Much of this discussion and that in a similar vein elsewhere led to one of the three main components of SynthesSize. Bumping in honour of Colins bump-rampage of '08
Kimbo
Ordered some Miracle Reds from NP. Going to see if this offers any sort of buffering effect.
Jakeshorts
bumb rampages upregulated Dante's fury exponentially... I'll pray for your immortal souls...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.