Ground info

Male / 53 / 6'2" / 208 lbs (+/- 2 since 0604, stuck @ 218 prior)

Fitness history: Gymnastics, track & football in high school; always active (racquetball / walking / climbing / cycling / martial arts), could eat anything I wanted & remain trim. Began putting on weight in '87 (desk job, age 38) & have been combatting the rising trend ever since. Lifted seriously in '96-'98 but was set back repeatedly by shoulder / knee injuries throughout, and stymied by the first round of real illness (& first 3 operations) in early '99.

Situation: During a prolonged illness (01/99 - 04/03, 4 more surgeries) I packed on 40+ pounds - almost all of it fat, almost all of it intra-abdominal. Skin-calipers suggest I'm currently ~35% bodyfat. Previously, I was ~20-25% @ 196. since beginning recovery efforts 18 months ago, I've lost 30 in weight, and regained some strength (but definitely not all), but my BF is apparently up another 10-15%.

Detail: During the illness, diet was terrible: Could only eat soft food (no chewing), heavy dairy component, always hungry. Diet vastly improved since, but due to fat crowding my internal organs, I find it a real struggle to eat enough to get me out of the starvation zone (regularly sub-1500kcal, or 1/2 maint. @ 15/lb). As of 04/03, blood lipids were elevated & hepatic lipid perfusion was pronounced; MD wanted to put me on Lopid, but appendectomy seem extreme for a common side-effect, so I declined.

As of 05/04, blood lipids were on the good side of normal (doctors were completely unsuccessful in finding cause to worry over my cardiac condition).

Supplementation: during the illness, little more than multis (Twinlabs one-a-day, no iron), minerals (cal-mag, manganese, selenium, zinc), Vitamin C (cal-mag ascorbates, quercetin, bioflavenoids) and joint stuff (Glucosamine, Chondroitin, supporting factors). A ginseng blend (Chinese, American, Korean). Oh - and whey & flax for a long time, and Leptigen Rebirth & SesaThin for the last 2 weeks.

Have since been on tribulus, cordyceps, catuaba, green tea, co-q10 & ashwaganda for the last year, ECA/rhodolia/forskholin/guggulsterones for the last 6 months, and NAC, DMAE & 7-oxo for the last 3 months.

Training: due to extreme deconditioning, and the desire to avoid re-activating old injuries, my "workouts" consist of deadlifts, pull-ups (can't do even one, but keep trying), and walking (w/ the occasional sprint interval) 2+ miles per week. I also stretch a lot, and do general movement work to build flexibility & cohesion.

Goal is to increase baseline fitness to a level that will support a return to normal health & normal activity - enough real vigor to support real lifting.

I'll continue this in the next post...

So, my thinking of late has gone along these lines:

- increase thermogenesis very quickly via the buterols or other means;
- increase metabolic activity very quickly via Triac / T3;
- reduce estrogen / boosting natural test production via SERMs & AIs;
- use low doses of some of the milder pro-hormones (thinking M4OHN (MD?) ) to create a better recovery environment for my poor shoulders / wrists / knees, and a more anabolic environment generally to help me get a baseline level of strength ('deep-core coherence', if that makes any sense) re-established;
- use short cycles of prohormones (thinking 4AD) to provide a flexible, inexpensive degree of hormone replacement;
- some strategy I haven't thought of;
- some combination of strategies.

The idea in all of this is this: due to dietary/caloric restriction coupled w/ age & prolonged inactivity, I've ended up estrogen-heavy, and so consequently shut down in terms of test-production, like my testosterone production had been reduced (down-regulated?) & what I get is quickly aromatised.

This idea may be totally wrong, but it makes sense based on what I (think I) know.

Since IA fat seems to be increasing despite increased activity & increased thermogenesis SO FAR, and since IA fat is providing an uncomfortable (might say 'alarming') impact on my activity and is a significant on-going health negative in its own right, I'm leaning toward thermogenesis via clenbuterol (and H.E.A.T./PhenoGen when they get here) as my next step.

Beyond that, I don't know if it would be better to do a 'MetaCort-style' anti-estrogen cycle, or something like [ Clomid @ 25mgED for 21 days, off 7, repeat ] to boost natural test, or just get the fat off, correct diet / training accordingly, and see what happens.

If my own test returns to more normal levels, then HRT becomes something for the future; if not, it's definitely something to think about for right now; Most of the discourse I've found on the subject has to do w/ doctor-supervised programs, and I'm frankly reluctant to set myself the extra obstacle of finding a medico I can work with. (I've not had good luck in this)

As far as low doses of pro-hormones go, this runs counter to virtually all posts on every board, which tend toward pushing dosages up, not down, so I find very little guidance on this point. What stimulated my thinking along these lines was reading about the speed of people's recovery from exercise & reduced fatigue during exercise. This could be the "magic bullet" I've been looking for: a chance to speed healing & recovery to the point where I can armor / injury-proof my shoulders, my knees, and be able to get on with it, not be stuck in an on-going round of injury and recovery & baby, baby steps.

Yes, I know there are no magic bullets, and everything has a price. However, I'm smart enough to know I don't know everything - and smart enough to know there are a lot of awfully smart people hanging out here, with a lot more experience than me. Please, people, give me your opinions, your critique, your suggestions - correct me, teach me, think, and share your thoughts!

Before you look at anything else, you should get your routine together. It looks like you're only doing pulling movements (because of your previous injuries?)

I'd recommend starting an abbreviated routine working in the higher rep ranges 10-12. Get some pushing movements going -- using dumbells if fearful for your joints.

At the very least you'll want something like:

squat
pull-up
deadlift or sldl
bench pressor db press
row
shrug and/or rear delt work

divide it into two workouts and don't sweat your arms for now (add one exercise each for bis/tris if you feel like it)

Supp wise I'd highly recommend using absolved for the next 2 months. It specifically targets visceral fat and produces noticeable results quickly.

I'd hold off on all androgens for now, since they can make a intra-abdominal fat worse. Metacort might be an exception, but I'd still hold off on it.

If you're having trouble eating more than 1500 cal/day there are some workarounds. You could eat healthy calorically dense foods (nuts, natural butters, homemade gainers) eat more frequently and use low carb/skim milk for your protein shakes.

You might also benefit from ROB style training (described elsewhere on the board) but I'd get in challenging workouts before trying it.

Finally, a good way to increase your pull-up strength is to do slow negatives.

with the post in the feedback section on m4ohn and 6-oxo causing disruptions in dopamine synthesis I would think twice before mixing the two. I know it's only one person, but we only have one body and I'd sway away from fuckin it up.

I'd avoid Clen if you already have significant ab fat. I used it when I was training about 5-6 years ago. I never had ab fat up to that point, yet after 12 months cylcling Clen I had ab and back fat. It kept me lean when I was on it in other areas, but for me it certainly changed the fat distribution considerably.

I would tend to look at diet first, use Rebirth, Sesathin, fish oil and ab-solved if you want to supplement. It's worked for me, the rebirth in particular has been astounding. I had a strange auto-immune response that the Doc put down to rebirth (this was the only change to my diet), so I came off it , but have since gone back on without a problem, so I think he's totally wrong on that count.

The rebirth at max dose is great. You can't beat a good diet though. Can't say mine was great, I went on a very low carb, high protein diet. It's not suitable for all but it was great for me. If you do go the high protein route - avoid salty bacon, ham, pork if you can as these will raise your fats/BP. Best to stick to lean meats, eggs, fish and nuts. You can still have green leafy salads and cucumber, so it's not all meat.

Good luck!

Dio - thanks for the heads-up about Ab-Solved!

I had dismissed "topical fat-loss products" out-of-hand, figuring they were not applicable to my situation. Have been off scouring the board for feedback, commentary, and of course, Par Deus' excellent write-ups on the physiology of VAT (I'd been wondering why the value-added tax kept cropping up!) and the mode-of-action of Ab-Solved. Too bad this came up right after placing a big order w/ BulkNut....


shadymademe - yes, I read that report...and the wild-ride thread the same guy started over at AnabolicMinds. No, I think it says more about the reporter than about M4OHN - so little is known about it, it's virtually a tabula rasa...and that always spawns creative efforts to make the blank places go away!

Totally agree on the 'not-fucking-up-yer-only-body' thing... ;-)


BigBadBern - am about to finish up my first tub of Rebirth, and I'm very pleased, though I'm also about half-way thru my first bottle of SesaThin, so it's not easy to sort out which is causing the increased definition & improved vascularity (just in my arms, unfortunately). I just ordered a test bottle of Ab-Solved, and my Avant order should be arriving today (thanks for the online order tracking, guys!), so I'll have Phenogen & H.E.A.T. to add into the mix.

Green & leafy is a no-go for me - 30 minutes after a salad, I'm in the can saying goodbye to it....

TO ALL - I feel like I owe a big apology: the thread and its title don't match, as I have 3 very specific concerns / challenges, but only address the VAT issue in the subject line - I should probably have broken it up into three separate threads; it probably doesn't even belong in this forum - given the multi-focal nature, it might have been better placed with the Training Logs (given the extent of my over-sharing!). Not really sure what to do about it @ this point...chalk it up to frustration, irritation & alarm, I suppose - and dazzlement @ all the sharp minds & new information here & on the other boards I've found recently!

O Mods! Your advice please: should I (can I) move it, modify it, start over or carry on?