So my sample bottle of Dermacrine arrived over the weekend and I started my trial run.

I began by taking a saliva sample for T, E and DHEA levels. I'll retest again in two weeks.

My supplement routine is fairly basic ATM.

Multi
2g TR ascobic acid
100mg CQ10 (getting ready to switch to Unique's new stuff)
Fenotest (I'll keep taking this so its not a variable)


I am working out EOD in a push/pull routine.

I am about 205# right now 16% BF +/-

First impressions of the product are good. Its packaged in an aluminum bottle with the choice of either a sprayer or a pump.

I'm applying 2 pumps to each shoulder upper arm each morning just after I shower.

The product itself is sort of an offwhite thick liquid, dries fairly quickly without leaving a residue and caused no irritation.

It smells slightly of...watermelon maybe?

So we'll see how it goes. I know how I felt using DHEA+formestane transdermal...it will be interesting to see if this is similar or not.

Thanks to Primordial for including me in this product test.

Look forward to this

From my TD experiments, the clavical area is a great place to apply, that is if you get bored of the upper arm/shoulder. I think for the highest absorption you want inner arm, upper chest, forearm and tops of feet. Triceptor helped me out alot, he is extremely knowledgeable about dermals. Anyways, look forward to the log B.

I will check back here. I'd never hear of Dermacrine or the company that makes it, but they have a hell of a nice website.

Will keep checking to see how body composition goes...

It actually depends where you put in on your skin that will influence its PCT or testosterone boosting properties. You will get a higher testosterone boost if you apply it to you shoulder/upper back skin because of the increased 3b HSD and 17b HSD in that area… whereas you will get less of a testosterone boost if you apply it to the stomach… but more of a DHEA boost. The higher DHEA would probably be more beneficial for PCT to increase StAR protein… ect, ect.

The enzymes in the skin controls what happens to the DHEA and pregnenolone. Its very cool.

-Pp

Are there any other logs on this product that we can look at?

Hmm, interesting thought.

Damn,I had just assumed clean/dry skin to be the only requisite for desired effect of ANY/ALL transdermal test boosters or PH's.

What locatations would be good for the application of transdermal formestane?

I should add that the intent is estrogenic side control while on androgens,not to act as a bastardized test booster.

You also have my apologies for digressing off the issue of Dermacrine although I see this as relevant but nonetheless,not in line with promoting your product.That said,I am looking forward to the results of this trial.

Hmm... 3b HSD reacted fomestane would make... some metabolite Im unaware of.

I couldnt tell ya on this bro. ;-)

-Pp

Day 2:

Two interesting notes:

Mood is excellent...had to work a 12 hour day today, major project got basically screwed up by a contractor and I was focused, alert and not annoyed in the least. Not sure if its the DHEA at work or it may be the fact that I have taken a gram of L-tryptophan before going to bed the last couple of nights...

I had almost zero appetite today. Normally, by lunch I am really hungry but today, I went right through lunch without noticing anything.

Very interesting product!!

Tell me Primordial, do you see this as more a PCT supp. than for general health? As I'm in my 30's the DHEA would definitely be of benefit plus I find the inclusion of Reservatrol very intriguing.

However if you see problems with chronic usage then I may avoid.

Cheers!

Honestly, Dermacrine can function as both.

However you may be using it, I suggest using it in cycles. 1 month on, 1 month off, ect. This way you can keep a nice hormonal rhythm. I imagine that if you used the product for non-stop for many months it eventually could have a suppressive effect, that is why I suggest cycling.

I spoke to Anthony Roberts about this very issue a few days ago. Below is an email I sent him, which he then posted on elite to educate guys about our product.

-Pp

---------------------------------------------

On Dec. 21 a 44 year old non-steroid using man had his hormone levels analyzed via saliva.(test 1) His DHEA’s, testosterone and estrogens were all in the very low sub-physiological range. In this case, the man would not have benefited from simple AI treatment, due to the fact that his estrogen levels where already below normal range.

He began Dermacrine treatment the following day using 30-35 spray pumps everyday for 25 days.

While using Dermacrine his DHEA levels rose from 1.2 pg/ml -23 pg/ml. This was over a 2200% increase in DHEA levels. Free testosterone levels rose from 50pg/ml up to 137pg/ml. This was over a 150% increase in testosterone. Estrogens (E1,E2) increased to a negligible degree, and stayed within normal range.(test 1)

After Dermacrine treatment stopped on the 15th of January we tested his levels again on the 18st. His levels of DHEA and testosterone dropped below baseline, showing a 3-4 day clearance of Dermacrine from the system. Less than 2 weeks later we tested his levels again to see if they returned.(test 2) His DHEA levels increased from 1000% and testosterone levels increased about 10% above baseline, showing a strong return of hormone levels, without further treatment. We hypothesize the future tests will show an even higher testosterone level.

What we can interpret from these results is that Dermacrine elicits a positive effect on the HTPA, leading to an up-regulation of hormone production. This effect has been noted before in other studies with topical DHEA. In the below study, the authors proposed that the topical treatment of DHEA initiated adrenarche, known as a surge in hormone levels in response to super-physiological DHEA levels similar to puberty. Interestingly, this effect is not a result of the DHEA converting to further hormones, but an indirect effect that DHEA has on the synthesis of cholesterol > hormones. In other words, DHEA enhances the production of itself.

Effects of transdermal application of DHEA on the levels of steroids, gonadotropins and lipids in men.
J Sulcova, M Hill, R Hampl, Z Masek, A Novacek, R Ceska, and L Starka
Physiol Res, Jan 2000; 49(6): 685-93.

Additionally, we hypothesize that part of the benefits seen with Dermacrine are a result of the aromatase inhibitors included in the formula such as resveratrol, 7,8 benzoflavone and chrysin. The research shows that the ingredients in the Phyto-AI blend enhance fertility, by eliciting a positive response from the hypothalamus, pituitary, testicular axis (HPTA). Meaning, the Phyto-AI blend will increase lutienizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone release (FSH) release from the pituitary. As you know, these are the hormones sent from the brain that trigger testosterone production from the testis. This effect seems to be caused by the Phyto-AI’s antagonistic interaction with the estrogen receptor similar to the action of SERMs such as clomid & nolvadex but without the toxic side-effects.

Inhibition of human estrogen synthetase (aromatase) by flavones JT Kellis, Jr and LE Vickery Science, Sep 1984; 225: 1032 - 1034.

trans-Resveratrol, a Natural Antioxidant from Grapes, Increases Sperm Output in Healthy Rats M. Emília Juan, Eulalia González-Pons, Thais Munuera, Joan Ballester, Joan E. Rodríguez-Gil, and Joana M. Planas J. Nutr., Apr 2005; 135: 757 - 760

Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats. K Dhawan and A Sharma Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.
These are the proposed mechanisms partly explaining why we believe Dermacrine will function as a strong PCT supplement, whether used with a SERM or not.

Day 3:

Mood still good, energy levels high and appetite still low...don't know exactly what's responsible for the reduced appetite but the effect is there.

We are having a blizzard so I can't get to the gym until Friday now probably.

Hmm, interesting.

Get those cupboards stocked. That suppressed appetite shouldn’t stick around for long.

All testers thus far have had a tremendous increase in appetite by week two, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

-Pp

Day 4:

Only change is annoyingly intense morning wood and slight prostate irritation...common for me with almost all exogenous androgens...bodes well for the increased T claims...

Sorry,I guess I misworded the question.

I was not asking about adding formetane to Dermacrine.

I'd just like to know ideal site applications of formestane in a trasdermal carrier i.e.BulkNutrition's E-Form.IOW,if the same principle applied to Dermacrine WRT shoulders/forearms/upper and inner arms hold true to applying transdermal formestane.

I have no intention of using Dermacrine as I'm on injected TRT and I'm using transdermal formestane to ward off sides,as I am prone to gyno.

That said,if I wasn't going the TRT route,I would lilely ante up the dough and buy some Dermacrine:)

I was referring to the enzyme activity of the skin, and how it may effect the formestane, if at all.

We encourage users to put the dermacrine on there upper back and shoulders, not because it absorbs the best in those areas, but because that is where the skin has the highest concentration of enzymes to convert the DHEA to testosterone and other beneficial androgens. When using E-form I would say it wont make much of a difference where you put it, just as long as it gets in the system. Some say that the "thin" areas of the skin are best... so Id stick to that.

-Pp

DHEA.

Benson - what time(s) of day are you applying the Dermacrine? Is there risk of transfer to wife/kids? I got a 2 year old who climbs all over me and I can imagine if this were applied to upper arms/shoulders it could be an issue... (I know you have kids too so thought I'd ask.)

Dermacrine may transfer to others through direct contact with the application site or from affected clothing or bedding. However, unless you have direct skin to skin contact with your child, or your child sleeps in your bed Dermacrine would not pose a problem.

Passive transfer to a grown women would not pose a problem, however very young children can be sensitive to DHEA if they have yet to hit adrenarche (8-12yr old) and because of there incredibly permeable skin, so caution is advised.


-Pp

Day 5: Finally got back to the gym...felt good, PR incline bench. I also noticed that I am running a good deal warmer than usual...the same amount of exercise got me a lot more sweaty today. Other effects continue.

As for transfer, I put it on just after my shower and before I get dressed for the day. I am sure to wash my hands carefully and put on a tshirt as soon as its dry. My boys like to wrestle with me but its usually after work and generally I am wearing a shirt...and shirtless contact with my wife is generally 8-16 hours after I applied the stuff so its not a problem.

You are right to be concerned about this though, there are documented cases of young children being put into precocious puberty after exposure to transdermal hormones.

Day 6:

Appetite kicked in last night and today with a vengeance...also the increased thermogenesis is very apparent...feel great generally. Some DOMS starting from yesterday's lift but nothing unusual.

I've been trying to look around at other boards to see logs of this but haven't found much. Can you add any information as to any ergogenic effects of dermacrine? If it's too new to say for sure, I understand.

Thx.

We have testers on Elitefitness.com, outlawmuscle.com, and offshorebodybuilding.com

All testers just started posting last week, so good feedback has just started to come in. So far most testers have noticed a mental "pick up" of well being, and general energy.

-Pp

Day 7: No new effects to report...feel really excellent nice mood boost I am familiar with from TD DHEA.

No estrogenic effects to date...seems like the AI side may be holding its own.

Thanks I'll check those out. One last question - do you have retailers selling this yet?

Universalkits.com

We probably wont be expanding much on the retail front. We have many informative articles, guests and exciting products for planned for the future. We hope to build a solid customer base solely through our own website.

-Pp

Day 9: Houston, we may have a problem.

I was feeling pretty sappy today, reminiscent of how I felt when I was taking megadoses of oral micronized DHEA without an AI...we shall see if it is a transient effect or remains an issue.

Sappy?

Yeah, I realize its not a very scientific description but I can't come up with anything better...sort of hyper-emotionally involved/sensitive...overly sentimental...

How meny pumps have you been using?

-Pp

Four, two on each upper arm/shoulder.

Day 10:

It appears the sappiness was transient...its largely gone today. I am sure it is related as I recall the exact same sensation when using 500-1000mg of oral DHEA...I am not sure if its a direct effect or an estrogenic effect. I am scheduled to take another saliva test on Monday so we will know where things are hormone-wise.

I am looking pretty good I must say. My waist is a little tighter/leaner and muscle fullness is good...again, don't know if its directly related to the Dermacrine or not...

Day 13:

Nothing new to report from the Dermacrine.

I did get my hormone test results back from my pre-Dermacrine test

Esterone 6.3 pg/m (ref 0-3) H
Test 138 pg/ml (ref 44-148) IR
DHEAS 5.7 ng/ml (ref 2-23) IR

So it appears that my estrogen levels are running on the high side although, so is my test so I suppose its not too surprising...DHEA is a little lower than I expected it to be...

I retest tomorrow so we are going to see how well the herbal AI mix is really doing.

Day 14:

Sent in another saliva sample today. Should have results in 10 days or so.

Set a couple of PRs in the gym today...felt really strong although also am starting to feel some relief from my elbow tendonitis that I attribute to Primaforce cissus which did not hurt matters...

Day 15:

Woke up to some slight facial acne this morning...interesting...

Any fatloss?

Nothing noticable...I think my muscles look fuller but that may simply be my imagination.

Does this feel similar to your last AI/DHEA derma mix?

Feels more estrogenic. I'm very curious to see the results of the saliva test because I feel like I am holding a lot of water.

I worry about you Benson. I dont know why..but I do..just want you to know. I care.

Why thanks Jim. I've discontinued the Dermacrine BTW. It feels like I am experiencing an increase in both E and T but that I am getting a good deal more of the former than the latter.

Curious, though I'm interested in seeing how the numbers pan out.

Benson, have you felt any nipple sensitivity? Or is it just the emotional side effects that have you convinced your estrogen is high?

-Pp

No nipple tingle...just emotionality and I seem to suddenly be holding a boatload of water...

I believe the emotional aspect may stem from the DHEA itself. It seems about 10% of users have semi-anxiety from the DHEA, sorta of like pubertal restlessness. Do you remember how much DHEA you used when you made your home concotion? What sort of carrier?

The water is interesting. I wonder if this is a result of increased body temp. Many thermogenics can encourage your body to hold more water. I doubt your estrogen has increased much at all if any.

I guess we will have to wait to see the saliva tests. Thanks for the updates

-Pp

Got the results of the second set of saliva tests

Esterone 7.0 pg/ml (ref 0-3)
Testosterone 134 pg/ml (ref 44-148)
DHEAS 18.8 ng/ml (ref 2-23)

So E was up slightly, T was down slightly and DHEA was basically up 300%

I actually find these results a little puzzling as they indicate that there was almost zero conversion of DHEA to any sex steroids at all.

You applied 5 pumps to the shoulders everyday…and applied up until the day of testing?

All testers thus far have at least doubled their test levels. This is a surprise…My only explanation is that your body converted most all the DHEA to androstenedione, implicating a lack of peripheral 17b HSD activity to then convert it to test.

At least this proves we have no say over the saliva test results… :-(

-Pp

Yep



Yes it is odd...I would have expected to see more movement in the downstream hormones...

sir,u are a tds genious and it is wonderful to see you on board here.much respect to you
i am looking forward to watching ppl pull their foot out of their mouth and apologize to you with the naysaying and doubt i have seen floating around when u first started posting

im gonna have to pick some of this stuff up.at first i thought it was 'just' for pct which i have no need for.but for an overall test booster....yummo!

your explanation of different areas of application in regards to boosting test or dhea depending?just floored me.i had no idea and ifind that absolutely amazing.