Ok, I know im gonna get some mixed replys, but wondering since i havent sein alot of downsides to this substance, does it make you on edge, quick to go off the handle , easily inraged? I know this usually comes with the territory and this may seem stupid to ask, but i hear alot of "being in a state of well-being" and not alot of easy to get angered like M1T.

Only been on for 5 days, (20 mg's the first couple days, now 30mg's) Can't say I feel much really. Certainly not quick to snap, face is a bit more oily...muscles a tad bit more full...that's about it so far. I'll get back to you though.

As of yesterday I've been having clen-like tremors and since nothing else had been added to my stack of supplements/drugs.It can only be the Havoc and what I'm guessing is the interaction between the wellbutrin.I doubled my wellbutrin dose from 150mg in the morning to 300mg,taken in the morning.

I've been on Havoc at 40mg for3 days as of today,started at 20mg for two days then 30 for 2 days.

A state of well being is laughable IME so far but it has improved my mood fo the most part.I've also been feeling hyper aggressive,which IMO is a mixture of a benefit and a drawback.

it's certainly potentiated the effect of caffiene,as I've had a 16 oz cup of Wawa coffee today and I'm much more tweaked than usual from a relatively low dose of C.

Colin, how is strength? Vascularity? Any negative impact on your creaky shoulder(s)? Increased acne? Sensation of increased blood pressure? Lethargy?

I just started this yesterday, 30mg/day coupled with 20mg/day of Methoxy-TST.

I'm very sensitive to side effects with PH's, M1T made me feel like I was dying, and I haven't touched anything since then (3 years ago or whenever it first came out).

So far, after 1.5 days, I feel nothing at all as far as acute side effects.

What is the Methoxy for?

Strength is up slightly.Vascularity is so-so,I'd wager that if I were 10% it would be very prominent.

Nothing WRT my shoulders,positive or negative.

No acne,but that was never a side from test or var for me either.Blood pressure is up a bit,going by feel.

Lethargy is a big issue as shortly after lifting,I'd pass out for a couple hours.It came into play,IIRC,2 days into the Havoc cycle.However,I'd been taking in sub 1500 kcals for 5 days or so priori to starting on Havoc so that could be a culprit WRT lethargy.

I took in close to no cho throughout the day,just shakes and low carb FF milk.Somewhat like what Virtual Cyber was doing with interrmitent fasting as I'd eat a decent sized bowl of cereal i.e.Kashi Go Lean Crunch with low carb or sugar free oatmeal w/the ghey milk before bed.

I've been using vineger w/the last meal of the day,which I haven't regularly done before.Also been on Phenogen for a month prior to Havoc and am still on it.Low dose DNP (220) mg the past 4 days.I have cut back on stim usage later in the day so really,three's too many damn variables to attribute the lethargy to the Havoc.

Something that may also be noteworthy is that strength was remarkably subpar today.I certainly felt a jolt strength wise after a couple days on Havoc but I felt pretty damn weak today,for the most part.Still managed to lift w/intensity,but it was barely sufficient i.e.inordinate amount of trouble on decline bench w/3 sets of 185,whereas 225 has been the usual working set.However,the only caffiene I took in pre w/o was from a can of diet soda,and I usually ingest upwards of 500mg pre w/o.

WRT "feelings of well being",I do feel mentally clearer but pre-existing insomnia is largely negating that benefit.The poor sleep architecture is back in full swing,which I'd put down towards Havoc/double dosage wellbutrin.I haven't any insurance at the money but I'm going to suck it up and pay out the arse for a bit of AmbienCR,which is the only thing that's consistently done the trick.

It's 17b-Methoxy-Trienosterone: http://www.suprememuscle.com/product/953/methoxy-tst.html

Not methoxy isoflavone, if that's what you were thinking.

Bascially just added it in because at the price they're offering, it becomes reasonable to take enough of it to potentially do something. Reccomended dose is 4-6mg/day, I'm taking 20mg/day.

No, actually I was thinking of its reported liver toxicity when it first came out. Worse than anything availabel at the time.

I eat acute hepatotoxicity for breakfast.

As in, actual bloodwork? I thought this was supposed to be like a drier 4-AD with very mild sides, at least at the recommended dose.

Does Walmart carry that?

Do you sprinkle it over oats?

A brief update WRT sides I've been having at 40mg,running it a bit shy of 2 weeks:

dry mouth-not a problem except for when waking up in the morning

acne/blemishes-I started getting a few mosquito-like blemishes last week,on my upper chest and shoulders.Now it's spread all over my upper chest to collarbone,shoulders and mid to upper back.They aren't pimples,trying to pop threm was unsuccesful and pretty damn painful.

I had one day of a strength gain around the start of upping the dose to 40mg's but overall strength has been declining,which makes no sense to me.Strength was going somewhat downhill a couple weeks prior to introducing Havoc.I did drop my test e dosage from 300mg to a TRT-ish 125-150mg per week a couple weeks ago and I've been dosing Phenogen for several months so that explains a good deal of the drop in strength.

OTOH,I've been seeing positive psychological changes,with the addition of 300mg wellbutrin XL.I previously was on 150mg,doubled the dosage,a few days into the Havoc run.

Colin, but you're still on low cal diet, right? I mean, even with exogenous T, without the fuel, your strength should be going down.

True,but no longer applicable as I've been eating around maintainance,the strength drop occured before the period of lowered kcals anyway.

For ex.I can barely squat 275 ATG when I was doing 365 ATG around 5 weeks ago.The weight just feels unbelievably heavy,although I was likely just so overtrained as of the past month that everything just caught up with me.I'm taking two weeks off from upper body to rehab my shoulders,I seem to have injured my right shoulder as bad or worse than the left one.

I plan on squats and ab work 3 days per week,or thereabouts so I will still be able to gauge strength.

Another strange side,although I attribute this to the bupropion and Havoc interaction and not purely Havoc,is that my hands shake as badly a tweaked out junkie's.The tremors sem to have subsided for the most part the last few days though.It's like a slightly more pronounced variety of shaking,as compared to clen.

I've also felt as if I was very close to blacking out sveral times these past couple weeks,while lifting and a couple times while just walking around.

Now, if you're overtrained (as you seem to be) and have been close to blacking out. I think the last thing you might want to do is squat as part of your resting routine. It's Spring and I believe you say you have a physically demanding job, so rest for now...recuperate4 and then start again with Havoc

Are you still on DNP? That could certainly explain some of the problems you have been experiencing.

Not as a total aside, but I remember you mentioning the use of NAC during specific recovery periods/deconditioning periods. Could you tell me the extra advantage of this?

Thanks Doctor Ozzy,I do agree that some R+R is called for.After a few days off entirely,I'll just throw in some squats a few days a week;GH release and all that.ATM,I've no interest in lifting at all.I can't squat right now anyway due to a poor injection choice 2 days ago which has left my left glute hurting like fuck all,especially while bending over and stressing the muscle.I ran out of needles for test a few weeks back and have been,heh,re-using the same one for I think 5 weeks and the needle has become dull.Not good.

GFK:
No,I dropped DNP a while back.I'm using CNW's Trimax/Triac now (no sides like this on my last run of it)and was using Phenogen for an extended period of time,the combination of which could promote lethargy/weakness. but not the kind of weakness resulting in nearly blacking out from deadlifting 315 for 2 reps.That is ridiculous.

NAC as an antioxidant....except the more I read, it seems that it must be taken alongside Vitamin C, so that NAC, doesn't oxidize

Now Colin, no need to be a dick about it. In truth I really don't care if you overtrain or anything really. I just wanted to separate your individual results due to other things from Havoc actual side effects.

Only side thus far for myself has been really creaky and sore knee's of late.

No ofense was implied,I thought it was clear that I was merely being sarcastic in my response.