So is there a VIDA profile on this stuff? What other hormone does this one most closely resemble?

If a person was wanting to use a hormone during a cutting phase to maintain strength and possibly put on a few pounds which would be a better choice, winstrol or havoc?

I believe its a methylated derivative of this.

Developed as an anabolic steroid by some Japanese company in the 1960s, used theraputically as a steroidal anti-estrogen in the management of estrogen-dependent breast cancer and gynecomastia. Related closely to the oral steroid mepitiostane.

And oh, what a sweet label it is

Here is some info

There is a VIDA profile on the parent compound, which Benson is correct on, Epitiostanol. For comparison:

* Superdrol is 20% as androgenic as the reference standard (17a-MT oral aka methyl-test), and between 400% to 800% as anabolic as the reference standard. It has a Q-ratio (ratio of how anabolic to androgenic a compound is) of 20.
* Pheraplex is 187% as androgenic as the reference standard, and 1200% more anabolic. The Q-ratio for Pheraplex is 5.
* Havoc stands in the middle. It is about as anabolic as Pheraplex at 1100% compared to the reference standard, but only half as androgenic. The Q-ratio for Havoc is 12. Havoc is not very androgenic, meaning a lower risk of side effects (usually). Although superdrol is even lower, this is not the only determinant in safety risk, and this is especially evident in user feedback.
(1)

Mepitiostane, the ester form, was developed by Shionogi in Japan and used to treat breast cancer because of its anti-estrogenic and mild androgenic properies (2-9). Mepitiostane has very low hepatotoxicity (10) and is incorporated into the blood and estrogen-sensitive tissue when adminstrated orally, and breaks down by water to yield epitiostanol, considered the active form of mepitiostane. Epitiostanol has multiple hormonal and antihormonal activities: androgenic, myogenic, progestional, anti-estrogenic, and anti-gonadotropic (11,12). Epitiostanol does not demonstrate estrogenic activity. Hepatotoxicity and hypercalcemia are non-existant in a study of 45 patients administered epitiostanol. "The drug could be administered in a patient with cirrhosis of the liver without any signs of acute elevation in the liver function tests (13)."

I am hesitant for an official "write-up" for Havoc, because it is methylated obviously this may change its effects. It is a sulfur containing DHT derivative and so far there has been success using it for cutting, strength and muscle gains have been impressive.


1. Vida JA. Androgens and anabolic agents: chemistry and pharmacology. 1969.

2. Okuno Y, Nakabou Y, Suzuki S, Ichiba S, Sugiyama H, Takahashi T, Imura H, Nakamura K, Ito M. [Complete remission by mepitiostane in hypoplastic leukemia]. Rinshō ketsueki 1989;30(8):1280-3.

3. Ogata K, Futaki M, Inokuchi K, Gomi S, Ohki I, Kuwabara T, Dan KZ, Kuriya S, Nomura T, Shinohara T. [Successful treatment of secondary erythroleukemia with androgen]. Rinshō ketsueki 1989;30(7):1079-83.

4. Nomura Y, Yamagata J, Takenaka K, Kanda K. Adjuvant endocrine therapy for operable breast cancer using the antiestrogen mepitiostane: a preliminary report. Gann 1980;71(4):548-56.

5. Nomura Y, Yamagata J, Kondo H, Takenaka K. Endocrine adjuvant therapy with the antiestrogen, mepitiostane, inoperable breast cancer patients on the basis of estrogen receptor assay. Gann 1978;69(2):281-2.

6. Oura S, Sakurai T, Yoshimura G, Tamaki T, Umemura T, Kokawa Y, Masuo O, Naito Y. Regression of a presumed meningioma with the antiestrogen agent mepitiostane. Case report. Journal of neurosurgery 2000;93(1):132-5

7. Yoshida M, Miura S. [Internal endocrine therapy of breast cancer]. Gan to kagaku ryoho 1984;11(5):989-98.

8. Matsuzawa A, Yamamoto T. Antitumor effect of two oral steroids, mepitiostane and fluoxymesterone, on a pregnancy-dependent mouse mammary tumor (TPDMT-4). Cancer research 1977;37(12):4408-15.

9. Takatani O, Kumaoka S. Inhibitory effect of mepitiostane on the growth of mammary tumor of a rat. Gann 1977;68(3):337-41.

10. Trial RC. 2alpha, 3alpha-epithio-5alpha-androstan-17beta-yl 1-methoxycyclopentyl ether in the treatment of advanced breast cancer: Japanese Cooperative Group of Hormonal Treatment for Breast Cancer. Cancer 1978;41(2):758-60.

11. Miyake T, and Takeda K. Epithioandrostanol, a new type of anti-estrogen. Excerpta Med Found Int Congr Ser 132:616-627, 1967.

12. Miyake T, and Tanaka A. Studies on 2a,3a-epithio-5a-androstan-17b-ol and related compounds. Part II. Hormonal and anti-hormonal activities of 2a,3a-epithio-5a-androstan-17b-ol. Annu Rep Shionogi Res Lab 19:20-38, 1969.

13. Inoue K, Okazaki K, Morimoto T, Hayashi M, Uyama S, Sonoo H, Koshiba Y, Takihara T, Nomura Y, Yamagata J, Kondo H, Kanda K, Takenaka K. Therapeutic value of mepitiostane in the treatment of advanced breast cancer. Cancer treatment reports 1978;62(5):743-5.

Sweet mother of a post! Thanks for the info!

So where does winstrol fall into all of these numbers?

Is it "better" than havoc, about the same, worse?

By better I mean more substantial results, less side effects.

I know it's your all's baby but I'm curious: If you had the choice of either for a cutting cycle which would you use?

If you want to add some mass while leaning, I am going to have to go with Havoc. If you just want to preserve mass while leaning, might as well go with Winny.

Havoc would still be pretty effective during a hard cutting cycle though, right?

Would it be fair to say that Winny provides more androgenic effects (drying up, strength gains, acne, hairloss) while Havoc does not?

Winstrol is known to be a potent anti-progestin while havoc as I have understood is anti-estrogen. Huge difference. Both significant anabolics though. IMO winni f*cks with memory formation and temper

Nope. Quite opposite. Winni has extremely low androgenic activity. I saw some interting mice, or were they rats, studies where deca, winni with test administration and alone were compared. Turned out that winni alone reduced testosterone circulation levels dose dependtly 2-4 fold while conjuction with testosterone injection, natural test levels were slightly below normal.

FYI

I don't think you are being intentionally misleading but its worth noting that neither mepitostane or epitostanol are 17-AA steroids. IIRC mepitostane was designed for lymphatic uptake to avoid first pass and I think epitiostanol is used as an injectable.

The fact that Havoc is methylated may change the hepatotoxicity of the compund dramatically. The one set of liver values I have seen after use indicate that its fairly mild in this regard but the fact that the two related compounds we have clinical data on are both liver-friendly is not really relevant.

Correct, which is why I said we are hesitant to release a writeup using the parent compound because Havoc is methylated. I do not mean to promote Havoc as non toxic but the research may give some insight why it seems to be gentle.

We're trying to get some more bloodworks done (anyone who is in the inner circle check out the offer). We'll be offering some more opportunities in this forum next week.

I wouldn't say that. In females Winstrol is among the harshest steroids ever. In some study virilization occured with 2mg day (IIRC). Poll some female steroid users and they'll say it's very harsh, many say it's worse than test.