IBE asserting Havoc impurities. This is an ongoing drama that started back when RPN beat IBE out the door with product. It has morphed into people making all kinds of weird claims regarding lab test results for Epistane, Oxyguno, Hemaguno, and now Havoc. RPN pay attention (I am sure you are onto this already)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1998031
Full Version: IBE going nuts?
Ahh the drama...
We need an eating popcorn smiley over here too... except I don't think we'd get nearly the mileage out of it as they do over there.
(1) A couple of weeks back, PA and Mike's (1fast400's) commented that IBE's epistane doesn't really contain epistane.
At the time, D accused RPN of using PA, Mike and others to screw IBE.
D and IBE are now striking back.
----------------
(2) Oxyguno and Hemaguno story is something else.
These are PH's that can eat into Havoc and epistane's profit margin. So, both RPN and IBE have an interest in seeing Oxy and Hema tank.
IBE was the first one to start a smear compaign against Oxyguno, at anabolicminds.
At the time, D accused RPN of using PA, Mike and others to screw IBE.
D and IBE are now striking back.
----------------
(2) Oxyguno and Hemaguno story is something else.
These are PH's that can eat into Havoc and epistane's profit margin. So, both RPN and IBE have an interest in seeing Oxy and Hema tank.
IBE was the first one to start a smear compaign against Oxyguno, at anabolicminds.
sweet. its good when supplement companies get called out on shit. to bad it doesn't happen to some of the bigger ones.
Any results on the IBE stuff (or anything for that matter)?
I wish I could comment here more than I commented on the thread. I think the motivation is pretty obvious, but we will let the judge decide.
I can't find the right words to phase this,but my curiousity has me:
Is it at all awkward to approach the legal system to defend a product that is sorta possible of getting negative attention from you know who...
Or can it be kept on a level where basically its, The Plantiff accused The Defendant of libel against Product X and no one asks any technical questions?
And if this cannot be answered, I fully understand...
Is it at all awkward to approach the legal system to defend a product that is sorta possible of getting negative attention from you know who...
Or can it be kept on a level where basically its, The Plantiff accused The Defendant of libel against Product X and no one asks any technical questions?
And if this cannot be answered, I fully understand...
I believe I made up for some of you lack of commenting, Matt. 
This is all pretty lame IMHO. I wish you guys(RPN) the best of luck in getting this resolved. You've been very mature in your handling of this mess from the beginning. If IBE had half a brain, they would've fired LakeMountD a few months ago, and saved themselves some grief. Anyhow, this should be interesting to see IBE lose all of the distributors that they've only had for the last couple of months. I imagine NP won't be carrying their line for much longer either. This was definitely some low-class, underhanded shit.
Quote:LakeMountD IBEforums-
The e-mail that was sent to all business WAS sent out by me. It was done so for a reason and that is that. The information was only sent to distributors that sold Epistane and it was sent in private. Mike M. is the reason for it getting out to the public, so you can blame all of the fact that it is in the open on him.
As a consumer you can take the information as you wish. We knew there was something strange going on, we tested it, and the results astounded us.
Again, make your own decision. We decided that instead of this he said she said crap that we would get all future batches independently tested with chain of custody so no one could say that we didn't test it. Before this we were having it tested in house, but as you know people could argue that we lied.
__________________
IBE Employee
Yeah, they should've fired him.................
The e-mail that was sent to all business WAS sent out by me. It was done so for a reason and that is that. The information was only sent to distributors that sold Epistane and it was sent in private. Mike M. is the reason for it getting out to the public, so you can blame all of the fact that it is in the open on him.
As a consumer you can take the information as you wish. We knew there was something strange going on, we tested it, and the results astounded us.
Again, make your own decision. We decided that instead of this he said she said crap that we would get all future batches independently tested with chain of custody so no one could say that we didn't test it. Before this we were having it tested in house, but as you know people could argue that we lied.
__________________
IBE Employee
Yeah, they should've fired him.................
So I have a technical question.
Say I make tuna and I have a can of my competition's product that they have represented as 100% tuna tested by a third party and the lab reports that its 60% fish and 40% tofu.
Provided I didn't make that up and can show the independent lab report, how is it an unfair trade practice, libel, trademark infringement or any other unlawful act for me to let people know what I found out?
I am not a lawyer but its not libel if its true no matter how damaging it is and its not an unfair trade practice if there is no attempt to deceive the consumer and I have no clue how this could be a Lanham (trademark) infringement...
Say I make tuna and I have a can of my competition's product that they have represented as 100% tuna tested by a third party and the lab reports that its 60% fish and 40% tofu.
Provided I didn't make that up and can show the independent lab report, how is it an unfair trade practice, libel, trademark infringement or any other unlawful act for me to let people know what I found out?
I am not a lawyer but its not libel if its true no matter how damaging it is and its not an unfair trade practice if there is no attempt to deceive the consumer and I have no clue how this could be a Lanham (trademark) infringement...
so wait...is this saying that they/he is not even taking responsibility for this now?!ive been waiting on this test,and im glad i only took a few days of the 'epistane' before deciding to hold off.wish i woulda known about havoc before buying the stuff!doh!
'the results astounded us' eh? so they are trying to somehow brush off any knowledge or responsibility or am i reading this wrong somehow?
'the results astounded us' eh? so they are trying to somehow brush off any knowledge or responsibility or am i reading this wrong somehow?
QUOTE(solomon1979 @ Mar 27 2007, 12:20 PM) [snapback]394448[/snapback]
Quote:LakeMountD IBEforums-
The e-mail that was sent to all business WAS sent out by me. It was done so for a reason and that is that. The information was only sent to distributors that sold Epistane and it was sent in private. Mike M. is the reason for it getting out to the public, so you can blame all of the fact that it is in the open on him.
As a consumer you can take the information as you wish. We knew there was something strange going on, we tested it, and the results astounded us.
Again, make your own decision. We decided that instead of this he said she said crap that we would get all future batches independently tested with chain of custody so no one could say that we didn't test it. Before this we were having it tested in house, but as you know people could argue that we lied.
__________________
IBE Employee
Yeah, they should've fired him.................
The e-mail that was sent to all business WAS sent out by me. It was done so for a reason and that is that. The information was only sent to distributors that sold Epistane and it was sent in private. Mike M. is the reason for it getting out to the public, so you can blame all of the fact that it is in the open on him.
As a consumer you can take the information as you wish. We knew there was something strange going on, we tested it, and the results astounded us.
Again, make your own decision. We decided that instead of this he said she said crap that we would get all future batches independently tested with chain of custody so no one could say that we didn't test it. Before this we were having it tested in house, but as you know people could argue that we lied.
__________________
IBE Employee
Yeah, they should've fired him.................
Shitttttttttttttttt
Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment...
All we now know is that the MW of what is in Havoc and what is in Epistane are different.
Do we know what the MW of methylepitostanol is? Has anyone seen a lab test or COA for Havoc?
All we now know is that the MW of what is in Havoc and what is in Epistane are different.
Do we know what the MW of methylepitostanol is? Has anyone seen a lab test or COA for Havoc?
Didn't Mike get into some legal trouble a while back posting lab tests of various products on a website? And later didn't he insist to somebody else they were going to experience the same legal problems for potentially posting product lab tests on an open forum?
So is he able to do this because of IBE's involvement in "gray" market research chem's this time, or his lack of a clear conflict of interest now that he has sold 1fast400?
Anyways if you haven't been following the thread these two posts contain some possible insight into why it could have a lower MW and still be what it claims to be (though likely still underdosed). I have to admit the chemistry is quite a bit beyond me though to know if it isn't completely BS.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php...p;postcount=567
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php...p;postcount=721
So is he able to do this because of IBE's involvement in "gray" market research chem's this time, or his lack of a clear conflict of interest now that he has sold 1fast400?
Anyways if you haven't been following the thread these two posts contain some possible insight into why it could have a lower MW and still be what it claims to be (though likely still underdosed). I have to admit the chemistry is quite a bit beyond me though to know if it isn't completely BS.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php...p;postcount=567
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php...p;postcount=721
Its funny how so many people claimed "lost gyno" on AM from Epistane but not once for Havoc.. Don't mean to bash.. I mean they are either shilling or lacing.
Quite a drama at bodybuilding.com and AM.
From reading posts at those sites, it is quite clear that many members at AM are shilling.
The posts about epistane and gyno are, IMO, just lies.
I hope IBE implodes and goes down in flames.
From reading posts at those sites, it is quite clear that many members at AM are shilling.
The posts about epistane and gyno are, IMO, just lies.
I hope IBE implodes and goes down in flames.
QUOTE(Benson @ Apr 14 2007, 09:36 AM) [snapback]397297[/snapback]
Do we know what the MW of methylepitostanol is? Has anyone seen a lab test or COA for Havoc?
Anyone? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
QUOTE(Benson @ Apr 20 2007, 09:40 PM) [snapback]398357[/snapback]
Anyone? anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
According to Patrick Arnolds posts: MW of actives in Havoc = 320. At MS test, it is supposed to lose a substructure, to result in 288. In other words, MS is supposed to detect an actives at MW of 288.
THis is pretty esoteric stuff. I don't think anyone here knows about that more than Patrick Arnold and his cohorts. Unless one has been working in this area for some time, there is no way one can know.
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