I started up on Havoc a few days ago (Friday). I'm running 10mg 2xED with meals for 6 weeks. I'll chime in here with any observations I make while on. I haven't noticed much yet, but it's only been a few days.
This week I'll be doing a PSMF.
Full Version: Havoc log
Sweet, enjoy.
Definitely looking forward to some feedback from you on this, Kim. I assume your goal is to retain muscle while losing fat? Low rep ranges to maintain strength?
What androgenic type sides are you prone to, if any?
What androgenic type sides are you prone to, if any?
QUOTE(GhostfaceKillah @ Apr 2 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]395362[/snapback]
Definitely looking forward to some feedback from you on this, Kim. I assume your goal is to retain muscle while losing fat? Low rep ranges to maintain strength?
What androgenic type sides are you prone to, if any?
What androgenic type sides are you prone to, if any?
Yep, that's the goal. I'm doing lower rep/high weight stuff for my lower body (mostly to maintain), and a mix for upper body. Also Oly lifting.
Last time I was on (it's been a while) I had oilier skin, more zits, and my libido was nutso. I've never tried anything like Havoc before though, so this should be interesting.
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Apr 2 2007, 10:26 AM) [snapback]395366[/snapback]
Yep, that's the goal. I'm doing lower rep/high weight stuff for my lower body (mostly to maintain), and a mix for upper body. Also Oly lifting.
Last time I was on (it's been a while) I had oilier skin, more zits, and my libido was nutso. I've never tried anything like Havoc before though, so this should be interesting.
Last time I was on (it's been a while) I had oilier skin, more zits, and my libido was nutso. I've never tried anything like Havoc before though, so this should be interesting.
Subscribo for the Kimbo.
What past anabolics have you used?
QUOTE(ersatz @ Apr 4 2007, 11:31 PM) [snapback]395821[/snapback]
What past anabolics have you used?
Just stuff that was legal back in the day - 1-TU, 4-AD, one or two others I can't recall off the top of my head.
Still PSMF'ing. Strength levels continue to increase despite a big deficit - I figure I'm taking in around 1100KCal per day.
Still seeing strength gains with a large caloric deficit.
Not seeing much in the way of reduction of pubertal gyno as of yet, but it's only been a little over a week.
Libido seems to be down a bit, although it could just be the pseudoephedrine messing with me.
Not seeing much in the way of reduction of pubertal gyno as of yet, but it's only been a little over a week.
Libido seems to be down a bit, although it could just be the pseudoephedrine messing with me.
What is the pseudoephedrine dosage? Any lethargy or feelings of well-being? Plans to increase the dose at all?
QUOTE(GhostfaceKillah @ Apr 10 2007, 02:46 PM) [snapback]396629[/snapback]
What is the pseudoephedrine dosage? Any lethargy or feelings of well-being? Plans to increase the dose at all?
I'll have to check the dosage when I get home, but it's the standard 12 hour stuff.
I have been feeling lethargic, but I've been chalking it up to very low calorie intake. More of an overall feeling of well being, and I feel a little more aggressive lately.
It'll be 2 weeks on Friday. I'll increase dosage to 30mg ED if I don't see a significant decrease in my pubertal gyno by then.
I think I may see a small reduction in gyno... maybe... sorta.
Bumping up to 30mg today. I'll go with that for a week or two and see how it treats me.
EDIT: Great... just found out I should be dosing this stuff on an empty stomach, not with food. Hopefully I haven't been wasting that much of it.
Bumping up to 30mg today. I'll go with that for a week or two and see how it treats me.
EDIT: Great... just found out I should be dosing this stuff on an empty stomach, not with food. Hopefully I haven't been wasting that much of it.
QUOTE(W. Llewellyn)
Maximum bioavailability with c-17aa orals is noted when taken on an empty stomach, not with food. Given their mildly lipid soluble nature, some of the steroid may wind up getting excreted with undigested dietary fat if taken with food.
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Apr 15 2007, 05:50 PM) [snapback]397544[/snapback]
EDIT: Great... just found out I should be dosing this stuff on an empty stomach, not with food. Hopefully I haven't been wasting that much of it.
Motherfucker,that is not pleasant news.I assumed food would increase uptake,as is true with most orals of this nature.I used 40mg divided in 2 dosages e/d,20 mg with breakfast and 20 with my last meal.I saw jack balls WRT gyno reduction but I wasn't cutting and my gyno is puerbtal/soft fatty tissue.
OTOH,it did have a positive effect mentally,so it had to be abdsorbed to a good degree to account for this benefit.
Have you read the PDF on the parent compound yet?
LMK and I'll email it to you,if you haven't.
If I were going to cut as hard as you apparently are,I'd add in raloxifene,Darius has posted some pretty good thoughts in his "gyno no more" log.
QUOTE(Colin @ Apr 16 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]397590[/snapback]
Motherfucker,that is not pleasant news.I assumed food would increase uptake,as is true with most orals of this nature.I used 40mg divided in 2 dosages e/d,20 mg with breakfast and 20 with my last meal.I saw jack balls WRT gyno reduction but I wasn't cutting and my gyno is puerbtal/soft fatty tissue.
OTOH,it did have a positive effect mentally,so it had to be abdsorbed to a good degree to account for this benefit.
Care to post up what you read on it,indicating it should be taken w/out food?
Not that I don;t belive you per se,it just clashes with what I've read earlier.
OTOH,it did have a positive effect mentally,so it had to be abdsorbed to a good degree to account for this benefit.
Care to post up what you read on it,indicating it should be taken w/out food?
Not that I don;t belive you per se,it just clashes with what I've read earlier.
I posted up a quote by Bill Llewellyn in that last post. I dug around a little more and it does appear to be the case - better when taken on an empty stomach. I don't have links handy to the other stuff I read, but I just Googled "17aa" and "empty stomach" and found several pieces of info on it. I was under the impression that taking it with food was better too.
I don't think it's completely wasted if taken with food - I'm obviously still getting effects from it if my strength is going up while on very low calories. It's probably just not absorbed as well.
There was a recent post on here (by Spook I believe) about fats increasing the bioavailability of oral hormones.
QUOTE(GhostfaceKillah @ Apr 16 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]397598[/snapback]
There was a recent post on here (by Spook I believe) about fats increasing the bioavailability of oral hormones.
Yeah, I saw that thread... I noticed that Sabretooth posted this in the thread though...
I was definetly under the impression you want to take hormones with food as they are lipid soluble, but i would probably take mr. llewellyn's words as fact..
good luck with the rest of the log kimbo
also, was your strength increasing before you started, while you were in the deficit? or is this something that is supposed to "kick in" immediately?
good luck with the rest of the log kimbo
also, was your strength increasing before you started, while you were in the deficit? or is this something that is supposed to "kick in" immediately?
QUOTE(rkieltyk @ Apr 16 2007, 09:31 PM) [snapback]397669[/snapback]
I was definetly under the impression you want to take hormones with food as they are lipid soluble, but i would probably take mr. llewellyn's words as fact..
good luck with the rest of the log kimbo
also, was your strength increasing before you started, while you were in the deficit? or is this something that is supposed to "kick in" immediately?
good luck with the rest of the log kimbo
also, was your strength increasing before you started, while you were in the deficit? or is this something that is supposed to "kick in" immediately?
Thanks man.
Dunno if it's supposed to kick in immediately, but I noticed the strength increase pretty quickly.
I'm feeling pretty lethargic today. I've also felt very edgy the last few days, and generally less patient with just about everyone. Today I feel pissed off.
Are you taking DHEA with it? Matt has reported immense improvements with it and Havoc
QUOTE(ozzman @ Apr 17 2007, 01:37 PM) [snapback]397751[/snapback]
Are you taking DHEA with it? Matt has reported immense improvements with it and Havoc
No... didn't want to do anything to mess with the results of the log, although if D Sade gives me the go ahead I may give it a whirl.
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Apr 17 2007, 10:50 AM) [snapback]397752[/snapback]
No... didn't want to do anything to mess with the results of the log, although if D Sade gives me the go ahead I may give it a whirl.
By all means, feel free to add it in. The difference is significant.
QUOTE(D Sade @ Apr 17 2007, 02:14 PM) [snapback]397755[/snapback]
By all means, feel free to add it in. The difference is significant.
One concern I have - doesn't DHEA increase estrogen levels?
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Apr 17 2007, 11:32 AM) [snapback]397765[/snapback]
One concern I have - doesn't DHEA increase estrogen levels?
You have a hormone that is anti-estrogenic to begin with. Some of the effects you are experiencing are perhaps related to that. When I added DHEA (100mg per day) I noticed a pretty quick boost in sense of well-being, increased libido, increased energy and easing of joint dryness/pain.
QUOTE(D Sade @ Apr 17 2007, 02:39 PM) [snapback]397766[/snapback]
You have a hormone that is anti-estrogenic to begin with. Some of the effects you are experiencing are perhaps related to that. When I added DHEA (100mg per day) I noticed a pretty quick boost in sense of well-being, increased libido, increased energy and easing of joint dryness/pain.
Yeah, I figured that was the case. My main motivation in using Havoc though it to help reduce this pubertal gyno I have, which is why I asked about DHEA and estrogen. If you think the DHEA won't reduce the results of Havoc in this context then I'd be willing to give it a shot.
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Apr 16 2007, 03:50 AM) [snapback]397544[/snapback]
I think I may see a small reduction in gyno... maybe... sorta.
Bumping up to 30mg today. I'll go with that for a week or two and see how it treats me.
EDIT: Great... just found out I should be dosing this stuff on an empty stomach, not with food. Hopefully I haven't been wasting that much of it.
Bumping up to 30mg today. I'll go with that for a week or two and see how it treats me.
EDIT: Great... just found out I should be dosing this stuff on an empty stomach, not with food. Hopefully I haven't been wasting that much of it.
I noticed that with m-4ohn. it went from no effects whatsoever to brilliant mood enhancement and increased recovery with a bit of strength increases.
took it first thing in the morning and an hour before gym(yeah i stopped pre workout meals)
Updates?
Upped my dosage to 40mg ED on Friday. 3 more weeks to go starting from then.
I've been getting some ridiculous lower back stiffness. Haven't really gotten back into the swing of working out what with my shoulder aggravating me, but so far my strength levels seem to be good. Haven't noticed much in the way of gyno reduction... hoping to see better results now that I'm at a higher dosage.
Including HEAT back into my supp regime has improved my mood dramatically.
I've been getting some ridiculous lower back stiffness. Haven't really gotten back into the swing of working out what with my shoulder aggravating me, but so far my strength levels seem to be good. Haven't noticed much in the way of gyno reduction... hoping to see better results now that I'm at a higher dosage.
Including HEAT back into my supp regime has improved my mood dramatically.
FYI,if Havoc is actually "anti-gyno",it had better be taken with raloxifene.Too lazy to post anymore but see Darius's thread on this.
It would be good to have two trusted board members offer definitive proof on Havoc with raloxifene.
It would be good to have two trusted board members offer definitive proof on Havoc with raloxifene.
It appeared that Darius didn't even use the SERM while using epistane, just test prop.
QUOTE(Jeff @ Apr 23 2007, 10:04 PM) [snapback]398788[/snapback]
It appeared that Darius didn't even use the SERM while using epistane, just test prop.
Still trying to figure out how this works into the equation, if at all... anyone?
I have no idea, but I'll be giving it a go at 40mg here shortly with aromasin (and some other goodies that will skew results).
Why are people running a SERM with a reportedly anti-estrogenic compound? Wouldn't that kill estrogen just as hard as 6-oxo or another straight AI?
No...SERMs don't decrease amount of circulating estrogen.
Right, but havoc/epistane does, right? So if you're decreasing circulating E with havoc, AND blocking the receptors with a SERM...
Edit: NM just finished reading the "goodbye to gyno" topic -- I figure the SERM must be to interfere with the alpha receptors.
Edit: NM just finished reading the "goodbye to gyno" topic -- I figure the SERM must be to interfere with the alpha receptors.
Then the estrogen receptor sites will have no estrogen. Also, from what it looks like, Havostane does not reduce circulating estrogen, it acts as a SERM itself.
If you're trying to ask if running a SERM alongside an AI is overkill (and by overkill you mean additional joint pain, reduced libido, and other low estrogen side effects) then no, that does not happen. If you mean by overkill as in redundant, yes, possibly.
By the way, if this is a poor attempt to hit on me, I am taken.
If you're trying to ask if running a SERM alongside an AI is overkill (and by overkill you mean additional joint pain, reduced libido, and other low estrogen side effects) then no, that does not happen. If you mean by overkill as in redundant, yes, possibly.
By the way, if this is a poor attempt to hit on me, I am taken.
QUOTE(dashforce @ Apr 25 2007, 04:26 PM) [snapback]399170[/snapback]
Right, but havoc/epistane does, right? So if you're decreasing circulating E with havoc, AND blocking the receptors with a SERM...
Edit: NM just finished reading the "goodbye to gyno" topic -- I figure the SERM must be to interfere with the alpha receptors.
Edit: NM just finished reading the "goodbye to gyno" topic -- I figure the SERM must be to interfere with the alpha receptors.
Exactly. I'm trying to determine if it has to be ralox though.
QUOTE(Jeff @ Apr 25 2007, 02:40 PM) [snapback]399174[/snapback]
Then the estrogen receptor sites will have no estrogen. Also, from what it looks like, Havostane does not reduce circulating estrogen, it acts as a SERM itself.
If you're trying to ask if running a SERM alongside an AI is overkill (and by overkill you mean additional joint pain, reduced libido, and other low estrogen side effects) then no, that does not happen. If you mean by overkill as in redundant, yes, possibly.
If you're trying to ask if running a SERM alongside an AI is overkill (and by overkill you mean additional joint pain, reduced libido, and other low estrogen side effects) then no, that does not happen. If you mean by overkill as in redundant, yes, possibly.
Hmmm... I was reading a post earlier that made it sound like it was decreasing E levels, not acting as a SERM. In fact, I recall a mention of potential long-term E reduction. Might have been over at AM.
QUOTE
By the way, if this is a poor attempt to hit on me, I am taken.
Shit, he's figured me out
QUOTE(dashforce @ Apr 25 2007, 04:52 PM) [snapback]399181[/snapback]
Hmmm... I was reading a post earlier that made it sound like it was decreasing E levels, not acting as a SERM. In fact, I recall a mention of potential long-term E reduction. Might have been over at AM.
From Darius first post, he quotes IBE saying it acts as a SERM on one of the receptors (alpha or beta), but I don't recall if they said it reduced circulating estrogen as well.
QUOTE
Shit, he's figured me out
D Sade mentioned that it reduces estrogen levels - one reason he suggests DHEA use with it.
Oh yeah.
Oops.
Oops.
QUOTE(Jeff @ Apr 25 2007, 11:26 PM) [snapback]399257[/snapback]
Oh yeah.
Oops.
Oops.
wurt
QUOTE
[A case of advanced breast cancer successfully treated with combined tamoxifen and epitiostanol]
[Article in Japanese]
* Konishi Y,
* Morimoto T,
* Komaki K,
* Yamakawa T,
* Mituyama N,
* Tanaka T,
* Oomine Y,
* Monden Y.
2nd Dept. of Surgery, School of Medicine, University of Tokushima.
A patient with stage IV advanced breast cancer with multiple metastasis (bones of the whole body, lungs) were treated by ovariectomy, administration of an non-steroidal antiestrogen (tamoxifen) and mild chemotherapeutic drugs, with favorable results. After four years, however, the patient had a relapse of the cancer. A steroidal antiestrogen (epitiostanol) was then administered with satisfactory results. When a breast cancer relapse occurs in patients once treated successfully with endocrinotherapy, a different form of endocrinotherapy should be tried. There is a possibility that the mechanism of action of Epitiostanol, which is regarded as a steroidal antiestrogen, is different from that of tamoxifen in which an estrogen receptor (ER) system is included.
PMID: 3395140 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
[Article in Japanese]
* Konishi Y,
* Morimoto T,
* Komaki K,
* Yamakawa T,
* Mituyama N,
* Tanaka T,
* Oomine Y,
* Monden Y.
2nd Dept. of Surgery, School of Medicine, University of Tokushima.
A patient with stage IV advanced breast cancer with multiple metastasis (bones of the whole body, lungs) were treated by ovariectomy, administration of an non-steroidal antiestrogen (tamoxifen) and mild chemotherapeutic drugs, with favorable results. After four years, however, the patient had a relapse of the cancer. A steroidal antiestrogen (epitiostanol) was then administered with satisfactory results. When a breast cancer relapse occurs in patients once treated successfully with endocrinotherapy, a different form of endocrinotherapy should be tried. There is a possibility that the mechanism of action of Epitiostanol, which is regarded as a steroidal antiestrogen, is different from that of tamoxifen in which an estrogen receptor (ER) system is included.
PMID: 3395140 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
"There is a possibility" Well that sure sounds conclusive
QUOTE
2α,3α-Epithio-5α-androstan-17β-yl 1-methoxycyclopentyl ether (10364-s), a new orally active anti-estrogenic steroid
Tamotsu Miyake, Takashi Hori, Goro Kato, Makoto Ide, Naomi Uchida and Kenji Yamaguchi
Shionogi Research Laboratory, Shionogi & Co., Ltd., Fukushima-ku, Osaka, 553, Japan
Received 22 February 1974. Available online 10 January 2003.
Abstract
2α,3α-Epithio-5α-androstan-17β-yl 1-methoxycyclopentyl ether (10364-S) was found to antagonize uterine and vaginal responsiveness to exogenous estrogen when administered orally to immature or ovariectomized mice. These activities of 10364-S were almost equivalent to those of fluoxymesterone, but 10364-S caused longer-lasting inhibition of estradiol-induced vaginal cornification in spayed mice. 10364-S inhibited mammary duct growth stimulated by estradiol benzoate in the spayed mouse and also mammary tumor growth in the rat, whereas the same dose of fluoxymesterone did not. These results confirmed that a mixed acetal substitution to the parent steroid, epitiostanol, a known potent anti-estrogenic and anti-mammary tumor agent, provided oral effectiveness and suggests a therapeutic potentiality of 10364-S in treatment of patients suffering from some types of mammary diseases.
Tamotsu Miyake, Takashi Hori, Goro Kato, Makoto Ide, Naomi Uchida and Kenji Yamaguchi
Shionogi Research Laboratory, Shionogi & Co., Ltd., Fukushima-ku, Osaka, 553, Japan
Received 22 February 1974. Available online 10 January 2003.
Abstract
2α,3α-Epithio-5α-androstan-17β-yl 1-methoxycyclopentyl ether (10364-S) was found to antagonize uterine and vaginal responsiveness to exogenous estrogen when administered orally to immature or ovariectomized mice. These activities of 10364-S were almost equivalent to those of fluoxymesterone, but 10364-S caused longer-lasting inhibition of estradiol-induced vaginal cornification in spayed mice. 10364-S inhibited mammary duct growth stimulated by estradiol benzoate in the spayed mouse and also mammary tumor growth in the rat, whereas the same dose of fluoxymesterone did not. These results confirmed that a mixed acetal substitution to the parent steroid, epitiostanol, a known potent anti-estrogenic and anti-mammary tumor agent, provided oral effectiveness and suggests a therapeutic potentiality of 10364-S in treatment of patients suffering from some types of mammary diseases.
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Apr 23 2007, 05:07 PM) [snapback]398757[/snapback]
Upped my dosage to 40mg ED on Friday. 3 more weeks to go starting from then.
I've been getting some ridiculous lower back stiffness. Haven't really gotten back into the swing of working out what with my shoulder aggravating me, but so far my strength levels seem to be good. Haven't noticed much in the way of gyno reduction... hoping to see better results now that I'm at a higher dosage.
I've been getting some ridiculous lower back stiffness. Haven't really gotten back into the swing of working out what with my shoulder aggravating me, but so far my strength levels seem to be good. Haven't noticed much in the way of gyno reduction... hoping to see better results now that I'm at a higher dosage.
kimbo, have you tried adding in l-taurine and Mg/K+? I found this helped with the mild lower back pumps i got while on pheraplex and the extremely uncomfortable pumps I got on TTA/sesathin..
QUOTE(rkieltyk @ Apr 26 2007, 03:37 PM) [snapback]399363[/snapback]
kimbo, have you tried adding in l-taurine and Mg/K+? I found this helped with the mild lower back pumps i got while on pheraplex and the extremely uncomfortable pumps I got on TTA/sesathin..
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm taking ZMA at night... I was getting in K+ with DCP, but I ran out so I haven't had that lately. I'll give taurine a whirl, one of my favorite supps anyway.
It's working.
Feeling pretty achey today. My lower back was ridicuously stiff last night, but I don't know if it was because of Havoc or because of my usual lower back problems (perhaps a combination of the two).
Lately I've actually felt hornier. Jeff noted yesterday that I was pretty much checking out anything with tits.
Lately I've actually felt hornier. Jeff noted yesterday that I was pretty much checking out anything with tits.
Achey again today. Really feeling it in my lower back and shoulders, and a little in my knees (though not so much). Dropped my dosage down to 30mg today because 1) I'm almost out of Havoc, and 2) my joints don't seem too happy with 40mg ED. I have another bottle on the way from NP, so I'll at least be able to run it at 30mg til the end of the week - if my joints don't feel better by then I'm going to stop on Friday, but if they do then I'll continue for one more week.
Still pretty horny lately, even on very low calories. This stuff has definitely not had a negative effect on my libido.
Still pretty horny lately, even on very low calories. This stuff has definitely not had a negative effect on my libido.
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Apr 25 2007, 12:42 PM) [snapback]399175[/snapback]
Exactly. I'm trying to determine if it has to be ralox though.
I don't have any studies on hand to post but searching Pubmed will show that ralox is a LOT more effective than nolva on gyno.
QUOTE(Colin @ Apr 30 2007, 08:10 PM) [snapback]399803[/snapback]
I don't have any studies on hand to post but searching Pubmed will show that ralox is a LOT more effective than nolva on gyno.
Cool, I'll check it out.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.