My goal in "getting lean" always has been trying to stay that way all year round. Ever since I became interested in lifting and getting bigger, I found out that I can get lean pretty fast with help of thermogenics and typical bb diets, but I could not maintain that state. I have been looking for a "permanent" solution ever since.

Having played with IF for the last year, it seems that the intermitent fasting is as good as it gets.

Let me explain a bit.

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I have been playing with intermittent fasting for close to a year now, on and off, with one variation: In my version, I liberally consume lots of protein shakes throughout the day. I still eat 1 "meal" a day.

I have been steadily getting leaner. But I also have been slowly getting bigger and stronger as well. My weight has climbed from 180 to 190. Initial 4-5 lb gain is probably from water due to changing my workout routine that is oriented toward volume. But, since then, my weight has been climbing, albeit slowly.

Latest workout routine: I do perform the total of 40 sets for chest, abs, and legs 1 day and the total of 40 sets for my back and shoulder. I go through the sets in approximately 40 minutes. I work out every day, unless I feel worn out.

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Two lessons:

(1) The chances are pretty good that my body recomp changes can be permanently maintained. I am convinced that IF-like diets work. The stress level at lower bf has not worsened. I don't feel any ill effects of being leaner.

(2) More protein, the better. Basically, more protein one can use to substitute for fat and carb, easier it is to get leaner and stronger. The effect is profound.

What is your overall caloric intake like? And what are your views on the health consequences of consuming very little whole foods?

Fully agree, my experience with IF has been absolutely excellent. The only issue I encounter is those supplements that need to eb taken 3-4 times a day and should be taken with food...

BTW, I highly doubt that adding volume to your routine would increase water retention by 4-5 lbs. Maybe 1 or at most 2 if that. So yo uperhaps did gain real muscle...

Sub7

I've been IF'ing for ~3 months. I haven't noticed anything different in terms of bodycomp or strength. But I've continued to do it just for convenience. I don't eat anything whatsoever during the day. Coming from a standard BB'ing diet it seems like I have an extra couple of hours that I previously wasted eating all the time...

Could you clarify what you mean when you say "protein shakes"? Just whey? I'd like to try your version.

Thanks.

I am about 2200 cals. Out of those, about 1000 cals are from protein.

Out of 1000 cals in protein, probably 800 is just from shakes.

----------------

Long term Healthwise, who knows. It is not as if there was a long term study on it.
I am not worried about lack of "whole foods" -- I think I get enough solid foods.

I am more curious about insulin spikes due to protein spikes.
There are no studies done on long term effects of protein shakes.

I feel great though.
My conditioning has been steadily improving.

I drink protein shakes througout the day. Whey or casein or a blend of the two.
The only meal I have during a day is relatively clean -- lots of salad, chicken, some fat, some carbs but not too much.
I do have 1 bad habit -- drinking 2 servings of fruit juice. This adds about 280 cals that do not provide great micronutrients.

Curious as how IF has effected you WRT energy throughout the day i.e. no more/less sluggishness than previous dieting methods you've employed?

I'd really like to try this but am hesitant to jump into thus as I need physical energy and stamina during my work day.I am likely getting hold of some amphetamines and will be dosing them in accordance with Frangible's reccomendation,I'm content to follow his lead as he has a lot of trial and error with these drugs.So IOW,perhaps the amphetamines would allow for stable energy while CHO is eliminated,discounting the night time meal.


WRT insulin spikes from protien shakes,I was under the impression they were practically non-existent,considering you're only taking in nearly pure whey with minute amounts of fat/cho.

I would think replacing some of the whey content with a base of Hood's calorie Countdown Skim milk would allow for less frequently imbibed shakes due to the casien.FYI,8oz. has 45 kcals,8 grams pro,3 grams cho.

Colin,

WHEY protein does produce insulin spikes.

I'd be curious how you would do with your job on a lower carb diet. Have you tried this before?

At first there may be effects, but one's body adapts over time.

Also, you still need to eat around your maintenance cals. It is just that you consume 1/2 of it in one sittin g (2 hr window).

I was aware that whey produced insulin spikes bnut my point was that they aren't substantial.

And yes,I've done low carb dieting in the past and simply took in ridiculous amounts of e/c to compensate for the reduced kcals/cho.In short,it sucked,a lot.

Still doing my modified IF diet.

Decided to log my strength increases while on OXYGUNO.

OXYGUNO: 3 pills ed (7.5 mg of actives/pill -- I will note changes in dosage).

---------------------------------

I will log pressing strengths (db presses, chest and shoulder).

Current strength:

DB chest press: 75 lb x 10 reps x 5 sets
OVERhead press: 60 x 10 x 5

---------------------------------

Stats:

Wt: 186
Cals: 2200, with 180 g protein. Rest of cals from fat and carbs.

Will note caloric increase, when I go over.

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As weak as hell thanks to dieting, but here is my workout.
40 sets in 40 min. No much rest between sets.

Day 1
Overhead db presses: 60 lb x 10 reps x 5 sets
Bentover db rows: 75 x 12 x 5
Laterals: 15 x 12 x 5
pulldowns: 105 x 12 x 5
upright rows: 55 x 12 x 5
stiff-legged deadlift: 135 x 12 x 5
Front raises: 25 x 11 x 5
seated cable rows: 105 x 12 x 5


Day2:
db presses: 75 x 10 x 5
squats: 135 x 12 x 5
crunches: 12 reps x 5 sets
hyperextensions: 12 x 5
inclined db presses: 65 x 10, 60 x 10, 55 x 10, 50 x 10 x 2
leg extensions: 120 x 12 x 5
reverse leg curls: 110 x 12 x 5
leg raises (lower ab): 12 x 5

6 days a week (unless I skip for a bad reason).

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I am still getting leaner, though VERY gradually.

It is indeed some good shit to see you update this log.

I just started a similiar diet troday but have replaced fequent intake of whey with 3 shakes throughout the day and solid food before turning in.I'm using a scoop of Matrix 5.0 in a base of Fat Free Calorie Countdown ,which is virtually liquid casien as it has 3 grams cho per 8 ounces.Also throwing in a good amount of inulin to help with satiety,I dunno how one can deal with no fiber throughout the day on this diet.

I mention this b/c it seems more practical and would yield a more stable intake of protien than just whey.Granted,insulin spikes are much more of an issue with this approach but I'd think a bit of ALA with each shake will offset the spikes enough.

This topic interest me.

Since last Friday night until now Thursday night, I've managed to eat about 5 solid high-protein, mid-fat meals. No shakes. Being 65 hours the longest I went without eating. I've gone from playing college football to now tennis, and thus do not need to keep my former 260lbs - 15ish%BF frame. Obviously, a extreme way to start a diet, but believe or not it has not being a struggle.

No stimulants or appetite suppressans, some Synthesize. I've exercised three times, no lifting, during that period and energy have not been a major issue. I've done it while keeping a "fuck it" mentality and using sub 10% BF definition and athletic success, as motivation.

How did my fatass managed to fast for three days? My money is in isolation, deprivation and goal-setting.

Where do I go from here now? Keep at it non-stop until goal is reached?

This is more rigorous than my version. It will probably work better too.

One thing I may suggest is not to be overly strict/critical. Try to maintain this diet over a long term -- this is where IF has real advantage, IMO, compared to other diets; you can do keep the diet without a rebound or burning out. Also, do not let one or two days in which you cheat discourage you.

BTW, just curious, have you gone back to the var? Or are you waiting until you feel certain that your liver is in great shape?

I may be taking your use of the word vigourous out of intended context but it seems like,if anything,your version is a good deal more vigourous than mine as you are consuming less cho throughout the day.That said,I'd think that your version would be the one to offer better fat loss,immediate and long term as well.

This is probably just splitting hairs though,as they are both grounded with the same premise.

Either way,I'm intrigued and mildly looking forward to dieting in a clear cut manner like this over an indefinite time period.

I haven't gone back on var yet,in its place i started up on test e at 600mg as of this week and will do that for another 5 weeks.i started up on Havoc at 30mg e/d last week and will continue on for another 3 weeks.I did wait a month and change,and used 6-0X0 (no nolvaon hand) along with milk thistle during that time period,along with my TRT dosing of test.

When I do get some more var,I plan on using it long term at a low dose (20mg e/d) for its effects on joint/connective tissue.I remember you poosting on several occasions something along the lines of forearm or wrist pain,IIRC,but this is definitely something of interest as injuries progressively get worse:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=28085

So are you just eating 1 big meal a night? Doesn't seem like a good idea not to get some aminos in during the day, but hey, if it's working...

So is this based on any sort of science or are you just playing it by ear? I am interested in the details of your diet if you would like to share. Thanks.

Someone care to elaborate on this or is the "Warrior Diet" exactly what IF always was with a clever name attached to it?

Not really, my daily "meal" these last few days has been about 40grs worth of grilled turkey or chicken and some Cool Whip Lite, or whatever the hell that's called. Usually around noon.

I'm pretty sure is not a good idea, and I just woke up starving, but like I said, 'fuck it', trying to lose about 40lbs and that includes some muscle too.

But maybe I should add a few whey shakes here and there, kinda concern they'll make me even hungrier for that 30-60 minute period after comsumption? Not that I couldn't deal with it...

I have several questions about IF

when, relative to sleep, do you eat your meals? huge meals pre sleep alwasy bomb my sleep and well being. the spike cortisol, skew your hormonal rythm and REM sleep, increase morning inflammation whil lower morning cortisol... unless your talking post workout, high GI, low volume meals...? when is your workout?

what are your stats,weight, height, BF?

how is your libido?

Maybe some whey/casein shakes and a few servings of SyntheSIZE would be a good idea.

Fuck it, I'm going to take this on. I've been attempting to keep a low-cal diet for the last month and it's generally been successful. However, I've recently started getting a large craving during the day to just eat. It's not anything in particular, but it's there. When I was doing a PSMF in January, I had very little in the way of cravings, perhaps because my blood sugar was very, very even. I'll be eating in a deficit (~2200kcal), basically using 4 "feedings" of protein before my giant evening meal. Also I'll have some spinach around the middle of the day for increased satiety. I'll also include 3 servings of Synthesize + Leucine throughout the day. I'll report anything in my training log.

Not sure if you are asking me ...


Ideally, I would like to eat about 1-2 hours before sleep (around 8:00-9:00 p.m.). The meal size is about 1200 cals. Sometimes up to 1500, but I don't like to go that high.


I understand your point. All the stuff you have mentioned are grounded on traditional view of bb.

As you know, there have been research papers that have been out regarding caloric restriction, resveratrol, sirtuins, and intermittent fasting. They are all related, and they focus on turning on the anti-aging gene, sirtuin. When turned on, that gene is supposed to promote the preservation of LBM and facilitate fat loss.

I am too lazy to post papers on them, but if you dp searches in this forum and in pubmed, there is plenty of information.


Around 5:00 a.m.
I am probably around 10%, though my caliper says I am around 8%.
weight 186, height 5'10".


Lately, it has been decreasing, though not significantly. Nothing unusual -- just a normal guy horniness.

Notes on OXYGUNO:

The feeling of being "ON" is weak with this batch of OXYGUNO.

I still have a bottle of OXYGUNO from my first purchase. That bottle still gives me the feeling of being ON.

It is frustrating; I can't even be sure that I am taking a real, legal steroid. Patrick Arnold said that OXYGUNO manufacturers were his ex-employees and they are good at what they do. But this recent bottle I purchased, I have no idea WTF is going on. Frustrating.

I probably should have used HAVOC instead.

If I remember correctly and my memory is not too faulty, they are similar, but the premise of each diet is different. WD's premise is to "return" to our diet before advances in food technology made us fat. So, it talks about eating as little of processed food as possible. Eat meat, protein, etc. It talks about eating 1 meal a day, like cavemen.

IF's premise is to activate the same genes that are activiated by caloric restriction and causes one to live longer. Interestingly, when that longevity gene is activated, it not only causes one to live longer, but it promotes fat loss and preservation of lbm.

Excellent and noted.

I wonder if one could use this in a slightly more aggressive manner WRT the evening feed in an effort to stay in a caloric surplus to support lean mass gains. I assume the problem would be getting enough "clean" food before feeling like you're going to burst.

I don't get it, sorry. do you take rresveratrol?



you mean 5 PM right?

Not sure exactly what is there to "get." If you'd like to talk more specific item (one of resveratrol, caloric restriction, IF), I can try to dig publications that may be more to your liking.


Not now. There are some issues with commercially available trans-resveratrol.


No, I work out in the morning, at 5:00 a.m.

This starvation deal is doing wonders not only weight loss wise but also for joints and aches. I guess there must have been foods on my diet that were contributing to general inflammation. Gotta love the anti-inflammatory properties of this though. Some fish oil and sesathin doesn't hurt either.

Been two weeks now, I'm down to about 244lbs (-21lbs). Have probably had about 7 solid meals in that period. As of lately a whey shake or two per day have been doing the job. Energy wise? Enough to get by for some running and tennis. No idea on strength, but not concerned about it anyways. Libido has stay surprisingly moderate-high, just like when I stopped...eating.

so you work out hevay and dont eat anything after that for 12 hours, then eat 1200 cals and go to bed? and you have proof this is good for the long term? show me. esp the fact that you train heavy and chroncially undereat around it, or the fact that you eat alot and got to sleep.

This is a novel approach so you must keep an open mind.That said,I have read this log,and the previous one as well,and he has posted studies indicating that calorie restriction within this specific frame is of merit.

In defense of the vangaurd,hehe,he does consume a whey shake post training and constantly has an influx of BCAA's as he takes in roughly 1000kcals worth of whey throughout the day,in place of carb or fat oriented meals.

His pre-bed meal comtains much CHO,which is certainly of value WRT energy levels for early AM training,a fact which he has confirmed after carb ups and so on.The cho consumed at night does indeed play a large role in recuperation from the AM work out.

That's all I've got ATM but I'll add that I am intrigued and copnvinced enough to adopt a similiar diet.

Liorrh:

You need to understand the basics behind IF, caloric restriction, and sirtuins before we can talk more.

In the past, I have given you enough material for you to follow up on.

ALso, your questions shows that you need to read posts more carefully.

sorry about that bro...

the material is to spread around and doesn't add up for me.

I'll look around again

I apologize for sounding a bit rude/annoying.

And no, I don't eat only 1200 cals a day. It averages to about 2200 cals.

I will provide some links and some information later.

I need to get some sleep as of now.

any news on that VC?

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20030607/food.asp
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/100/10/6216#F2
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/4/981 (april 2007 can anyone get full text?)

The second link includes a bunch of links to articles on IF that cite it at the bottom

basically IF activates some of the same genes that occurs with complete fasting, like the sirtuins responsible for life extension seen in animal studies on resveratrol. Also has other benefits for blood pressure, etc except that last abstract doesn't look so good

I have switched from OXYGUNO to HAVOC, as OXYGUNO doesn't seem to be effective.

MY 2-week cycle with HAVOC in IF ends today.

---------------------------------

Current stat:

Wt: 192
Cals: 2200, 180 g protein, the rest from carbs and fat.

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Current lifting stat:

db bench presses: 75 x 10 x 5 (started at 75 x 10 x 5, so there is no change)
squats: 135 x 12 x 5 (started at 135 x 12 x 5)
crunches: 14 reps x 5 sets (12 x 5)
hyperextensions: 14 x 5 (12 x 5)
inclined db presses: 65 x 10, 60 x 10, 55 x 10 x 3 (65 x 10, 60 x 10, 55 x 10 x 1, 50 x 10 x 2)
leg extensions: 135 x 12 x 5 (120 x 12 x 5)
reverse leg curls: 115 x 12 x 5 (110 x 12 x 5)
leg raises (lower ab): 20 x 5 (12 x 5)

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Notes:

Since being on HAVOC, I have been getting stronger. Leanness has stayed the same, until I started playing with large doses of lecithin for about 5 days, which made me lose some definition. I have stopped taking lecithin.

Loki was in favoir of lecithin on clean refeeds,I'll dig the oink up and post it later but I need to sleep now.

OTOH,if what you posted rules out Loki's take via trial and error then it seems that damn near the only EFA really useful for body comp,skin and mental health,seems to be fish oil.

My experiment with lecithin has been too unstructured. I think I was taking so much it allowed carbs that I was eating to cause bloating.

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BTW, two thumbs up for HAVOC!

Suppose that one is under 10% bf, and has been dieting for some time, and is doing IF. Under such conditions, supps or even androgens do not help much for gaining muscle. BUT with HAVOC, I have been gaining.

Impressive compound.

i don't really get this whole idea of intermittent fasting, nor do i understand the concept behind or its "evolutionary" explanation…

I can't understand why infrequent feeding should result in a greater fatloss given the same amount of calories… for me this simply doesn’t make a lot of sense…

I think the evolutionary explanation for the diet is strange as well – why did the cavemen just eat once a day, well because they had no food, but this doesn't mean its optimal for your body, nor that if they had food they would not have eaten more frequently…(look at animals - they eat whenever they can...)

moreover didn’t the cavemen have any esthetical targets nor did nature by the creation of men think about getting below 10 % of bodyfat or insane amount of muscle…

so I don't get this concept….

There has been a more up-to-date explanation. THis is rooted in longevity studies in caloric restriction.

Basically, the longevity studies show that certain genes become expressed when one reduces caloric intake. The beneficial effects from expressing the genes are: (1) preservation of LBM, (2) fat loss, (3) longevity.

So, people have been experimenting with caloric restriction (CR), except that there are problems that come with CR, such as constant hunger, vulnerability to disease and hypothermia, etc. Then researchers began to probe the possibility if intermittently applied CR is sufficient to trigger the same mechanisms as plain caloric restriction.

When scientists experimented with mice, they found that when CR is intermittently applied, not only did the mice reap all the benefits of caloric restriction, but in ADDITION, the mice retained greater percentage of LBM, their weight, high leptin level, etc.

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For more info, do a search on Intermittent fasting at this site. There is a lot of information on it.

Well everyone I want to update my progress. I started this close to a year ago which was inspired by VC's journal on fasting. I had my fair share of struggles with it until I got it right.

Instead of carbing up everynight, I decided to eat lowish cal-lowish carbs every other day. During the low cal days I added some highish rep work.

On the carb days I would either do a tension workout or power workout split into upper or lower days. Instead of pasta, I ate more normal meals (though doing my best to keep fat intake low. Everyday I would eat only once. I feel there is an advantage to eating one meal per day even compared to two.

Lately I have been struggling of my new sleeping schedule making my circa. rhythm out of wack. This means increased chances of fat gain and muscle. Im hoping 11oxo would help in that respect. I have also noticed that fat loss slows down a bit when I dont truly fast for 16 or so hours. That means no little protein snacks at all. Though would like to hear VC's take on this. l

I get to eat until my belly hurts every single day (albeit once a day). What's not to get?

hmm okay read some stuff about it...

but most people seem not to completly fast until the evening meal, most people get some protein, fruits or nuts during the day and then around 50-70 % in the one meal in the evening...

so my question is - these certain genes that activate while fasting or eating less - when exactly are they triggered, i mean where is exactly the calorie limit? eating nothing at all, eating just 30 % of your maintenance during the day...where do you know where the trigger is?

Personally I'm taking in less than 25% of my calories throughout the day via protein and spinach.

It is not rigorous IF.


No one has identified the exact level -- I don't think there is one. More likely scenario is that the gene is more strongly triggered under greater caloric restriction until the refeed.

The goal in performing variations on IF is to achieve the same/similar effect one sees in a more rigorous IF. It is unclear what the optimum levels are. Obviously, closer you are to a true IF, more likely you will mimic the experimental results.



Not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if there is a biochemical pathway?

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BTW, IF of eating once a day may not be optimal for accelerated fat loss/lbm retention (or triggering the sirtuins gene). One can arrange refeeds and fasting differently (e.g., eat once every 3 days, eat low calories for 6 days and refeed for 1 whole day, etc.). But there is one advantage to eating once a day: it is easy to do (at least compared to other diets).

There is a reason to think that is the case. Clearly, it is the difference between average caloric intake during the fasting and the peak refeed that is making IF work. Eating once creates greater caloric difference.


Based on my experience, you will still lose fat without "truly fasting." But I know that when you "truly fast," you get accelerated fat loss. The difference is pretty significant. Sounds like you are doing better than I am.

and how should the fasting period at least be? or was it according to these studies you are reffering to...15 hours? cause then you could start eating at lunch time if you got to bed around 11 pm....

i mean, my "normal" meal plan right now is like

breakfast 15 % (of daily calories)

snack 15 %

lunch 15 %

snack 15 %

pwo & dinner (2hour window) 40 % (and also around 50 % of my daily carbs)

According to a study, it is 24 hrs. (Every other day fasting).

In the version people have been practicing in this board, the "fast" is approximately 21-22 hrs. That is, ideally, one would like to eat as few calories as possible throughout the day and eat the rest in one sitting (1-2 hr window).

In variations some here practice, SOME calories are consumed during the day. But ideally, that should be kept to the minimum. Personally, I have tried eating nothing and, and eating protein during the day. For me, eating protein during the day helps out significantly in maintaining strength or in getting stronger. Others like to be more rigorous, and just not eat anything during the day. (Of course, one can drink as much diet coke or water as one wants -- 0 cals, right?).


It doesn't work that way. One has to try to limit the period of time of refeed.


You can certainly start with that. IF is not set in stone; it is just an idea based on broad theories.

Remember, more you cut cals during daytime, more likely it will work for you.

could you post an example day?