I've been researching on supplementing with BCAA's, I wanted to try out Xtend for all the benefits I've read about. However, in the "BCAA's/EAA's" thread there is some discussion on BCAA's reducing dopamine, serotonin, NE, etc. I know a lot of members here take it, do you notice anything in that regard? Should I just avoid the stuff?

That depends. What do you value more, being big but unhappy and unmotivated or being just not as big and happy and motivated. There has got to be trade-offs in life. I don't know. Why not just megadose of l-leucine and take hydrolyzed whey protein with it along with some maltodextrin before and after workouts. I wonder if it is the synergy between the three which cause this or a sole culprit. I don't know. I'm too lazy right now to look it up.

If I keep the dose under 5g of BCAA I am ok. Anything more and issues ranging from upset stomach to limp dick arise.
I mostly use hydro whey + malted milk (masks the horrid vomit taste).

I don't know it just doesn't seem worth it for what it does for you. But I see so many members, and may of the respected intelligent members around here taking it so I'm confused.

It is very hard to find something that tastes as good as xtend, and that is as effective for endurance...
Personally I would love xtend flavour + leucine. But it is yet to materialise...

I'm pretty sure that's at really high doses.

If by really high you mean 10 - 20g (n=1, I know)

You must be a big motherfucker.

I've never had any issues with it. I take a lot when working out, around 8 scoops with 2 scoops of eaa's. I've done this for 17-18 weeks. I don't think I've had any "negative" side effects like you mentioned.

n=1

not too mention that at some level, and i couldnt say what that level is, gluconeogenesis is kicking back some of the 30-45 grams of amino acids in that blend into glucose...which construes the true upper limit of issues arising with mass-consumptions of BCAA's

Call it whatever you want. I'm using a cut style diet and having incredible results over this time period. I don't care what some random journal says. This is what is working for me. I've stayed within 3% of my original starting weight and have cut my bodyfat by more than 10% in 4 months. I'm staying around 7-8% now and very very slowly gaining LBM.

There is no valid reason on megadosing BCAA's, some companies push this to make the consumer spend more money and buy more of their product. Usually 10-15 grams of BCAA's peri and during your workout is more than enough. The whole reason BCAA's are effective and excellent during a workout is because of their quick absorption. During workouts the body is under stress thus BCAA's come in handy, why would you need them any other time in the day? Food is a better form of delivery for amino acids when not exercising.

The studies that support BCAA's usually use 10 grams, maybe 20 grams at most if I recall. The majority of these same studies come from endurance activities, i.e. marathons, runners, cyclists.

My own personal experience is 15 grams works just fine as 30 grams, and yes I megadosed before when I first started because I believed the companies. Currently I prefer EAA's+carbs for resistance training and BCAA's for cardio.

Yes, there are very good studies on this. What has not been discussed is the fact that the decreased levels of dopamine mean more prolactin which may
lower test.

So lower test, dopamine, NE and 5-HT sounds pretty much like a recipe for dysporia if you ask me.

OTOH BCAA´s does seem to work really well as an anti-catabolic.

Do you do the amount cxm has stated or do you megadose?

I think what I use comes out to about 7-8 scoops of xtend. I use a protein sized scooper because I got annoyed using the smaller scooper. Forgot how many that comes out to, but it's over 6. Throw in 2 scoops of primal eaa and I'm good to go. I'm only on 2k calories, training 6x a week, 3 low rep/3 high rep with 30 min of cardio afterwords. I've put on A LOT of muscle for my frame using this and cut bf by more than half. Every 3 days I carbload for 2400 calories. It takes me about 1h 40min to train.

So like I said, call it whatever you want. I like the results, I'm in the best shape I've ever been and I feel great. Not everyone is created equal. So obviously what's working for me, might not work for you.

I am interested in the fact that you add EAA to your BCAA, could this be helping avoid some of the large does BCAA sides, I have to try this.
What flavour is primal EAA? What flavour xtend do you mix it with?

I agree with you, if you get results and no sides it's awesome, I'm not saying it's not effective, I'm just saying if someone has never tried before, start out with a small tub and see how you go.

When you exercise there are changes in your free tryptophan/BCAA ratio, free tryptophan increases, thus it goes to the brain in which serotonin is produced, and is why you start feeling tired. When taking a free form BCAA's during your workout they compete with the tryptophan for absorption thus lowering the feeling of being mentally tired.

I don't see how current EAA's products being tryptophan free can help balance large doses of BCAA's, other than possibly phenylalanine but I doubt it.

I use Apple Xtend with Lemon Primal EAA. EAA's taste like butt. However, in that mix, I don't even know they are there. It mixes just fine. When I first get to the gym, it looks a little funny. A little swirl in the shaker cup and it's fine. It's also fun drinking a bright green drink in a gym haha. For me, this type of dieting/training would lead to overtraining, easily. I'm not a big guy by any stretch, a true ectomorph. I know a lot of people would have issues following the cut diet, but honest to god it's the easiest thing I've ever done. I never think about what I'm doing. It's the same all the time, I love it. As long as I'm not going 5-6 hours between meals for some reason, I have zero issues with cheating. The question is how long can I stay on it. I've been doing this around 18 weeks or so I guess. I haven't counted exactly. I'm going to try and get to 175 at 6% for my birthday, which is may. Last friday I was 167, fully water depleted at around 6.5%. I'll see if I can get some before/afters and post tomorrow.

So what if I added tryptophan to my bcaa?

You can try that, but you might as well just use protein. There are other goodies in protein too apart from straight amino acids.

how many grams of BCAA's are you going to take a day?

I use hydro whey.

But I do a lot of mountain bike, (I got a specialized p3, 2007) and whey does not keep well in the hot sun.

I would like to consume about 15g over a 3 hour bike ride.

But if I consume any more than 5g or so (seems to be the sweet spot) I notice libido issues (lasting till the next day) and a lack of motivation.

interesting, never heard of this from anyone. I have megadosed up to 50 grams a day and never had anything like this happen. You can try it tryptophan but it's also a relaxant, you might want to stick at your 5 gram dosage or go to hydro whey. Still seems not normal for you to have these side effects. Have you tried BCAA's with carbohydrates?

Maybe have your hydrowhey at the start, but have some concentrate, milk protein isolate or a casein type earlier on.

I doubt I am "normal" but I am not the only person who has these side effects.
Currently I am taking purple wrath at 4 scopes over 3 hours and I am fine, but xtend tastes better and should be more effective... I feel left out.

i dont really see how that is possible other than BCAA competing for transport with phenylalanine and tryptophan.
ide like to read the article/posts you are referencing, pm plz?

y the hell not? look at the BBB transporter research, tons of it.

yea like i said, other than competing for transport and temporarily decreasing the amount of da & 5ht precursors getting into the brain....i dont see hows bcaas would have a direct effect on nt production or receptor sensitivity/binding etc etc


ide really like to see at least ONE non anecdotal reference...


for about 2.5-3 weeks now ive been mixing 2 scoops of xtend into my sizeON and sipping it throughout my workout... about 1 week ago i was hit with a healthy dose of apathy & dysphoria, very reminiscent of my pre st johns wort days... ive been under a bit of stress, but the reaction seems odd regardless...

what more do ya need?

temporary inhibition of uptake of precursors shouldnt, in theory, produce any long lasting effects...
my side effects lasted, for atleast 36 hours (untill i popped 50mg 5htp)


im gonna try to repeat this

Chronically mega-dosing protein and especially BCAA up-regulate the BCCA catabolic enzymes! This results in less muscle protein deposition over time. (1)

1. Millward DJ, Price GM, Pacy PJH, Quevedo RM, Halliday D. 1991
The nutritional sensitivity of the diurnal cycling of body protein enables protein deposition to be measured in subjects at nitrogen equilibrium. Clin. Nutr. 10:239-44

I have been taking a PWO shake consisting of:
60 grams dextrose
24 grams whey
15-20 grams BCAAs
I have been doing this for quaite a while now and have not suffered any negative side effects.

Have you seen this study?

Serotonin and central nervous system fatigue: nutritional considerations