Hello M&M members,

I wanted to give you guys a quick sneak peak for what we have planned for the 1st of the year…

Dermacrine Sustain, now Sustain Alpha: New ingredients working in synergy to make the existing formula more effective. This new Sustain Alpha uses aromatic oils to elicit a massive surge of L/H from the pituitary to stimulate testosterone production from the testes. These oils actually dissolve and enter your brain when you smell them, triggering this boost of testosterone. Primordial Performance also took things one step further by making another addition with the ingredient Diallyl Disulfide. This unique little molecule further catalyzes the L/H pulse and testosterone increase. The combo is nothing short of remarkable, and the name for the new revised product fits accordingly – Sustain Alpha.


Phyto Testosterone: The name says it all, this plant based substance effects our body in every way like the real anabolic monster -- Testosterone. You have probably heard of all the “Phyto-Estrogens” that pollute our food and water, and have negative estrogen-like effects on our bodies, well now Phyto-Testosterone is here to sway the balance. We deliver this cutting edge product with our oral Phospholipid Delivery Matrix, which increases bioavailability and gets more Phyto-Test into your system.



Toco-8: This is a Tocotrienol complex extracted from palm fruits. It will be a powder that can be mixed into your favorite drink or shake. Recently, it has been granted a US patent for stopping hair loss and promoting hair regrowth. It also has powerful effects in lower bad cholesterol, and increasing Testosterone production by increasing testicular sensitivity to L/H and F/S/H.



Primordial Essentials Product Line: Throughout 2008 we will be introducing our new Primordial Essentials Product Line. These will be economically priced essential products that are designed to be taken long term for enhanced health and fitness. The first, Toco-8, will be launched in early 2008, additional products will be regularly added to this section.

New Pricing Structure: Through Referring members, making purchases, and gaining recognition on our Forum you will earn Primordial Rankings. With each tier you will get better discounts. On top of this, when you make referrals you will earn product credit to be used on our site.

Come check out the new products and new website upgrades in the beginning of 08!

Stay tuned…

-Pp

am I allowed to ask questions about the route of action? Sounds a lot like hibitin manipulation.... or indirect follistatin agonism.. Which I've been discussing lately. Freaking awesome.

Your products have always intrigued me, I'll be watching the new line up closely.

Pp reminds me of a young Avant Labs....

Swoon.
Much innovation right here.
Write up and and ETA still in the works?
Testers?

I should have reviews for Dermatherm in late feb early march.

E

you have outdone yourself my brother!!!

looks great!!

bb

Well thank you for the kind words guys! ... Here is a little more info on the method of action in from the volatile oils...

The naturally extracted volatile oils immediately evaporate upon topical application and become naturally drawn up into the nasal cavity (also absorbed topically). Once these airborne oil molecules dissolve upon the olfactory bulb, they are carried through the nasal mucosa where they reach the hypothalamus and pituitary for direct modulation of hormone production. This is the science behind the medical practices of the ancient civilizations that applied aromatic oils from herbs such as Clary Sage and Sandalwood to heighten a man’s fertility and libido.

More info soon...

-Pp

Great to hear you coming out with new stuff, PP! Looking forward to trying them out!

I was speculating moreso on which hormons were being manipulated

LH / FSH and probably prolactin... exactly how is a good question.

-Eric

Got a rough ETA yet?

Phyto-Testosterone = Ecommia ulmoides ?

Couldnt agree more. INNOVATION is all I gotta say.

Easy E - your killing me! I'll wait for the write up. Any idea when it will be available for little jerks like myself?

The new Sustain Alpha is available now, we just haven’t updated the site yet. So any orders placed for Derma Sustain will be shipped the Sustain Alpha.

Benson,

Interesting link, but Phyto-Test will be a combo of Testofen (fenugreek) and methoxyisoflavone. It will be delivered in a very cool serum like formula that tastes a lot like maple syrup.

The action of Testofen comes from its direct action on the AR receptor, and as far as we can tell is every bit as potent as testosterone for inducing muscle growth. The study done by Gencor on mice showed that it made the levitor ani and sexual organs grow just as much as the testosterone group, and considerably more than the control group. (all groups were castrated)

The Methoxyisoflavone is not directly acting on the AR, but we believe there is some receptor ligand cross talk. For instance, if high estrogen levels are present this flavone will potentate the effects, but if no estrogen is present that the flavone has no estrogenic activity… this same action can explain its anabolic effects on improving nitrogen retention and muscle growth.

-Pp

well played chicken I am loving the AR activiation, but tolerance seems inevitable, will there be a dermarevive coming out as an analoge?

E, let us know how we can help promote all this through newsletters, etc.

Happy holidays!

Any dates for product release, ingredient release, and write ups eric?

Buy sustain now and you will get sustain alpha shipped, the other 2 prods are supposed to be available to ship the first week of Jan.

Toco linked to a patent: "http://www.google.com/patents?id=AtF_AAAAEBAJ&dq=7211274

Its a simple complex of tocotrienols & tocopherols. I would guess the mechanism is quite different than 5alpha-reductase inhibition... probably something to do with the complex's antioxidant abilities."

Mini write up on Phyto Testosterone: "It will be something along the lines of Testofen and methoxyisoflavone delivered in a very cool serum like formula that tastes oddly close to maple syrup. (without any flavoring added)

The action of Testofen (despite what most think) is that is acts directly on the AR receptor, and as far as we can tell is every bit as potent as testosterone for inducing muscle growth. The study done by Gencor on mice showed that it made the levitor ani and sexual organs grow just as much as the testosterone group, and considerably more than the control group. (all groups were castrated)

The Methoxyisoflavone is not directly acting on the AR, but we believe there is some receptor ligand cross talk. For instance, if high estrogen levels are present this flavone will potentate the effects, but if no estrogen is present that the flavone has no estrogenic activity… this same action can explain its anabolic effects."

The sustain info is in his first post.

This stuff quoted from Pri Perf himself.

I wouldn't call random comments or a quote from a post without references a write-up even a mini one. I'm sure we've all seen amazing claims from supplement companies about a product. It resemebles as much of a write up as I do a shoe horn. A write up is backed by evidence which is either present in and of itself or is cited to the location of which.

Either way, let's ignore that for two seconds - my questions have been directed towards Alpha since the beginning. The rumors are true.. I can read.

any experiences with this extract benson?

Its a common ingredient in many TCM yang formulae....never used it by itself. I find the testosterone mimetic effects rather interesting though...

More info I should have included on the "shoe horn"
"The mice studies showed Testofen to be just as potent as Testosterone for its anabolic and androgenic effects (relative to 500mg/week in a human). The human study also produced very impressive results in reducing BF and increasing lean mass. (see attached) Plus, high doses of methoxyisoflavone have produced solid 5-10 lb gains for many individuals who have tried it so I see no reason why the combo couldn’t surpass this."

Click to view attachment

if testofen binds to the AR, it should be HPTA suppressive, right?

You would think so, but its not quite so simple. The data from the fenugreek manufacturer states no change in total T levels (only an increase in free T) supporting the idea that its not suppresive. Its possible that the fenusides in the fenugreek extract are lending some sort of ligand cross-talk without direct AR transcriptional activity. Remember, just because something binds to a receptor doesnt mean its brings all the same effects and something else that binds to the same receptor.

We only assume it binds because it causes muscle and sexual organ growth similar to T when no T is present.

-Pp

this is a good point, maybe shutdown isn't a concern.. would receptor downregulation be one though?

oco-8: This is a Tocotrienol complex extracted from palm fruits. It will be a powder that can be mixed into your favorite drink or shake. Recently, it has been granted a US patent for stopping hair loss and promoting hair regrowth. It also has powerful effects in lower bad cholesterol, and increasing Testosterone production by increasing testicular sensitivity to L/H and F/S/H-



That looks impressive,WRT the MPB angle.

I didn't go over the study extensively (I'm lazy and there's a lot of pages,meh) but I did see that amounts for MPB treatment apparently were from 20mg all the way to 1500mg.

So what is the optimal daily dose for MPB?

Im not aware of them using a tocotrienol dose that high. What study are you referring too? The patent states that a 50mg dose of the tocotrienol complex is the effective dose for hairloss treatment.

-Pp

I just glossed over the study (as I alluded to in my prior post) and saw the figure of 20-1500mg used somewhere.IOW I pulled that figure out of my ass with no referance.

So when will this be available?

I see that you note "early 2008",can you be more specific?

I'll definitely give this a shot to treat my MPB,if you need product testers/loggers,other aspects of the supps as well as the MPB angle,please hit me up.I'm fine with spending the money on the retail tag but would like to get a head start.

It will be available tomorrow. (hopefully along with Phyto-Test)

It is actually a 50mg dose 2x daily which the patent states is effective for hair regrowth.

-Pp

http://www.primordialperformance.com/cla.cfm

Cla ethyl ester?

Meh.

The rest of the line looks pretty impressive though,I've got 2 bottles of Toco enroute.

PP,I'd like to hear your take on clomid at 25mg ED for TRT (assuming all other health parameters are fine) in conjunction with your Toco supp.If this helps with my MPB,I've no qualms with buying it indefinitely.

I'm gyno prone so this is my only concern.

Do you think the Toco could be applied transdermally?

Oh man... you dog on CLA but you use clomid for TRT..? ;-)

Clomid is damaging stuff IMO. I had an article featured on Meso about the long-term negative effects of popular SERM's. I can email this to you if you like.

Toco-8 will provide a benefit no matter what sort of TRT you are on.

Rochhard,

Unless you included the Toco-8 into some sort of topical matrix I wouldnt put in on topically. It would probably create a big orange mess.

-Pp

Everything I've read (multiple studies showing long term use of clomid in men) indicates no such issues exist.I would appreciate seeing the study showing otherwise,please send it to me at colin@avantlabs.com.

Im not aware of any long-term studies in men showing clomid to be safe. (Only short-term fertility studies)

I sent you the article.

-Pp

Colin,

I tried emailing that to you but it got bounced back... you have another addy?

-Pp

Sorry,my AL email addy seems to be sketchy lately,I know it can't be full.

You can send it to bigredchief@safe-mail.net and thank you.

PP:
I never received that study at my safe-mail account,please send it when you have a moment.




Good news (semi-good anyway as the diets were low in toco to begin with) for sesamin + Toco-8 synergy,and there's a lot more studies on toco+sesamin interaction on Pubmed:

Lipids. 1995 Jun;30(6):499-505.Links
Sesamin (a compound from sesame oil) increases tocopherol levels in rats fed ad libitum.
Kamal-Eldin A, Pettersson D, Appelqvist LA.

Department of Food Science, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Uppsala.

Six groups of rats were fed diets low, but adequate, in alpha-tocopherol but high in gamma-tocopherol. The six diets differed only in their contents (0, 0.25, 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, and 4.0 g/kg, respectively) of sesamin, a lignan from sesame oil. After four weeks of ad libitum feeding, the rats were sacrificed and the concentrations of alpha- and gamma-tocopherols were measured in the plasma, livers, and lungs. Sesamin-feeding increased gamma-tocopherol and gamma-/alpha-tocopherol ratios in the plasma (P < 0.05), liver (P < 0.001), and lungs (P < 0.001). The increase was non-significant for alpha-tocopherol. Thus, sesamin appears to spare gamma-tocopherol in rat plasma and tissues, and this effect persists in the presence of alpha-tocopherol, a known competitor to gamma-tocopherol. This suggests that the bioavailability of gamma-tocopherol is enhanced in phenol-containing diets as compared with purified diets.

PMID: 7651076 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I just shot it over to you again. Thanks colin.

-Pp

I'd be interested in any articles/study on your phytotestosterone. a search on pubmed on the ingredients on your website didn't provide very promising findings.

There are numerous long term studies of clomiphene in men, some lasting as long as 18 months.

PP:
I received your email but the attachment is unviewable,for some reason .

Please post the study in this thread:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...4&hl=clomid

Thanks....

For those waiting on their back-order of Phyto-Testosterone, they have been shipped, and Phyto-Test is finally back instock. We are also well stocked on the Toco-8 at the moment.

-Pp

Nice to hear.

What have been peoples results on these?

You probably wont find a lot of feedback on this board, but you will find quite a few reviews and logs on Anabolicminds, Elitefitness, and OLM.

So far the most impressive results have been coming from a Dermacrine/Phyto stack. They Phyto-Test is a great lean muscle builder, and when its coupled with a strong androgenic product like Dermacrine the result is strength, much improved recovery, and very lean muscular gains…. Not to mention a ravenous appetite from the increased protein synthesis.

-Pp

need someone to put a log on here? =)

Shoot me a PM with whatever ideas you have... Im sure we could work something out.

-Pp

I've been using Dermacrine for a few weeks and have now switched to Alpha Sustain.

Really happy with both for general mood elevation and libido (actually, the mood elevation is probably a direct result of the libido increase).

Just a quick question though: Is it ok to rub this stuff on your nuts? This is what I've been doing as I read on a couple of boards that this method had been OK'd. Would like to keep applying it this way as the tingling sensation you get really does make you feel "cocky" all day

Also, have noticed the Alpha hums a bit - not sure what the smell is, but it's quite powerful.

Yes, the scrotal app is ok… and its probably the most exciting thing about application for most guys.

The smell is still something we are tweaking based user feedback, so its being constantly improved as we slowly move the formula to a more natural type lotion.

-Pp

Great and thanks for the quick reply; you can understand the concern though as don't want to be upsetting my baby-making cauldron