In a recent study performed by the University of Connecticut at Storrs, and published by Functional Foods and Nutraceuticals in September 2002, researchers examined the influence of PPC on body composition and muscle damage related to repeated resistance training. In a three-week, double blind, placebo-controlled study; nine male subjects took PPC supplements while doing resistance training. Researchers measured muscle damage (creatine, kinase, and malondialdehyde increases) for several days, and had two major discoveries. First, the group taking PPC had no muscle damage on the day after the first day of exercise whereas the placebo group had increased muscle damage lasting up to eight days. Second, the group taking PPC had a significant increase in lean body mass. The bottom line is, polyenylphosphatidylcholine had a favorable effect on lean body mass and recovery from resistance exercise and the effect may become more pronounced over time.

Did they have any theory as to the MAO ?

This is the stuff that protects your liver right ?

Any side effects ?

Yes.
Yes.
No.

I had no idea what this stuff was until I read this. It's a legal supplement apparently? And seemingly beneficial for overall health. Um.... SWWEEEEEEEET? Not sure what the catch is, I'm guessing price. I wonder about the dose. So the study was performed in 2002 and no one noticed? How did you find it?

Yep legal in the US as a supplement sold as a drug in several other countries for years.
I've seen 900 mg 60 softgels go for under $28 bucks.
Looks like it.
Reviewing a bunch of medical databases.

What dosage was used in this study? What is recommended?

You would have to contact the University of Connecticut at Storrs to find out.

Generally 900-1,800 mg

Has this study been submitted for review and publication in a reputable journal? If so, which one?

Try google. I'm always amazing how people try to get you to do their research for you.

So the answer is "no", then. Gotcha.

Dayam, thats some good info Steve!

Sorry Zoalord,Steve has a valid point here.

Pubmed and/or Google it.

I'll do the leg work,when I have to.

I currently have 3-4 weeks left of milk thistle,NAC and SAM-e so laziness is excusable on my part

You missed the point of my loaded question.

Point was taken but validity of said point is questionable,at best.

You lack the capability to make such an evaluation.

How so?

Please,indulge me.

when training for hypertrophy, don't you WANT muscle damage after training?

I have yet to fully read into all of this but the first post states:

"Second, the group taking PPC had a significant increase in lean body mass"

thats all that would matter in my book..

i second this notion.

Zoalord - supplement snobbery doesn't justify the fact you can't refute any of the studies findings. Your always quick to denounce everything with no real evidence other than an ego. High horses are great and everything, but being part of Lyle's board doesn't mean your word is gold here.

Presumably that damage would occur regardless, if you are in fact pushing your limits. The faster the recovery, the faster you can train again, the faster your progress will be. Damage isn't good for it's own sake, it's good because the repair process results in growth and adaptation.

On another note, anyone frequenting this board should know that people here like to experiment, and often extrapolate. Deal with it.

It's also worth remembering that asking 'what if' and using imagination is the foundation of all scientific discovery.

I think this is suggesting that damage ISN'T required for hypertrothy... no damage = incredible recovery times. If your into the whole "DC" bs way of thinking this means you have more opportunities to "grow" since it's less time off recovering. Meh.... I think i'm light headed now.


EDIT: Jinx brings up a good point. I said the same about fuco... what's 15-20 for a study conducted by you? You can interpret your own results and feel like a pioneer all at once. This also kills the question: "What if I'm a nonresponder" or the AM philosophy "Hey man, it works for me." god... kill me now.

Well, isn't that exactly what i did?

Its not too bad, iHerb has Jarrow 1000mg PPC, 60 ct for less than $25. Although, because this stuff is a component of lecithin/PC it may be cheaper to get what you need that way...I surprised you're not carrying it at Cognitive Steve...

Actually it's only 750 mg per cap from Jarrow. LEF makes 900 mg 60 softgels.
More lecithin won't equal the benefits from DLPC plus I doubt the cost-amount benefit would work out.
I don't call it for what CN carries.

Huh?

You understand very little of what you post, especially abstracts, and you really just serve a "me, too!" function.

You miss the point, too. I am fine with a great deal of the literature on PPC for the applications it has been set to and that which has held up to scrutiny under peer review. What you fail to realize is that there is likely a reason you won't find the above study in a reputable journal, and that reason, whatever it is, should be taken into consideration. Frailty, as we call it, is an important therapeutic area. Had this an impressive impact, and were the data evaluated to be of a high quality, then many groups would find it worth exploring further and it would, within the scientific research community, of which I am a part, be welcomed and notable.

Some of you folks act no better than the supplement of the month legions at bb.com. I'm a pro-supplement, so long as a given supplement gets meaningful results for a large number of users when properly applied. In other words, it has to work. Sounding good doesn't do anything on its own.

I know that a lot of people here like to waste their time, myself included. Don't be so bothered by being called on it when someone else notices. I'm not. Sometimes, an outside perspective allows me to consider an aspect I may have missed before in my previous examination. That's a good thing.

Good add on if you're into AAS.

Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2007 Aug 30;:1-10
Multivitamins and phospholipids complex protects the hepatic cells from androgenic-anabolic-steroids-induced toxicity.
Pagonis TA, Koukoulis GN, Hadjichristodoulou CS, Toli PN, Angelopoulos NV. Department of Endocrinology, Thessaly University Medical School, Larissa, Greece.

Introduction. Androgenic-anabolic-steroids (AAS)-induced hepatotoxicity typically occurs with C-17 alkylated oral agents abused by exercising individuals at clinically recommended doses. Injectable compounds appear to have the same risk for hepatotoxicity, but are applied in doses three to six times higher than clinically recommended. AAS users occasionally try to avoid the well-known hepatotoxic effects associated with the abuse of a multitude of AAS agents, by using the pharmaceutical agent compound N a phospholipid/vitamin preparation. Primary Objective. The investigation of the actual hepatoprotective effect of compound N against AAS-induced toxicity. Methodology. This was an observational cohort study of 320 athletes; 160 were AAS users and the other 160 were not abusing any substances. Of the 160 users, 44 were using AAS and compound N (group A), and 116 were using solely AAS (group . The 160 athletes abstaining from substances abuse acted as controls (group C). All athletes were tested for alterations in serum levels of hepatic enzymes. Enzyme levels before the study's onset and after the end of the 8-week AAS regimes were compared among the three groups, in order to delineate the hepatoprotective effect of compound N. Results. Prior to our research all groups showed normal values in all enzymes except creatine kinase (CK). After the 8-week period, CK levels were slightly lower in group A, but without variation in Groups B and C; gamma-Glutamyl Transferase (gammaGT) levels remained normal. Groups A and C had no elevations in any of the enzymes, except CK, while in group B all enzymes' values were elevated above the normal range. The only factor differentiating AAS users in group A from those in group B was the use of compound N, thus the results being suggestive of the compound's detoxification effect. The severity of AAS abuse was positively associated with the degree of changes (Delta values) in all measured enzymes except gammaGT and CK. Conclusions. Previous suggestions that serum hepatic enzyme elevations in exercising AAS abusers are connected to muscle fiber damage rather than the abuse itself, are contradicted by our results. Since all AAS abusing athletes were prone to exhibit elevations in enzymes' values, the mean values of group A were to be similar to those observed in group B, exceeding normal values. The group hepatic enzyme values of group B were significantly higher than the group C (control). Notably, group A did not have any statistically significant difference in the hepatic enzyme values compared to group C. The effect of exercise on these enzymes' elevations was ruled out by the comparability of training regimens and AAS toxicity was correlated to the severity of AAS abuse.


Interesting that the people using steroids using PPC (also called compound N) had no liver enzyme increase (same as bodybuilders not using steroids). However those on steroids had elevated liver enzymes.

You're essentially calling me an idiot citing no reference other than your own vague commentary.

I have read a handful of your posts,all of which have been short and along the line of the handful above so there isn't much for me to remark other than what is displayed by yourself within this thread.Perhaps you have contributed meaningful content to this board that I have not read.I will grant you that a degree of skepticism is certainly a good thing as far as a lack of studies available.I did not however suggest that PPC as a panacea,I stated that further research is warranted as from the two studies in this thread alone,this looks like more than a worthwhile substance at below $30 per month.

The two studies posted,and what is known of choline and overall,strongly suggest PPC as preferable over other choline sources.Especially WRT as an adjunct for AAS users.Nothing I posted indicated that it is my belief that PPC is a first tier supplement for general health as far as a core of GTE,multi and fish oil.

It may be of remarkable value to AAS users on cycle or those with a lower end of liver functionability.As well as those who seek cognitive improvement as well.Overall I think the promise lies within the AAS user subset.

Like I said before you blathered on with your unprovoked insults,this looks impressive but of course some peer reviewed studies grifted from Pubmed and the like would be quite nice.

You seem to be suggesting that the research done was tainted by corporate sponsorship or something along those lines.There is a slim chance IMHO that you may be right but to dismiss PPC altogether as you are doing is bullheaded and shows a lack of an inquisitive,patient nature.This such personality trait is certainly a requisite if you are a worthy member of the "scientific community" as you profess to be.

This should help everyone.

It doesn't kill any questions, as you aren't ruling out extra variables, nor are you generating anything with respect to statistical power. A prime example is the Fuco usage by yourself and Colin. You both are inconsistent. Likewise for riseboi and his readings or whatever he has been doing. Colin takes several things, as he often does, exercises, eats, and uses outside influences (nicotine is an easy example) in an unregulated and haphazard fashion (usually while telling you he "knows" his body or some such crap, even though he has yet to be seemingly successful in accomplishing states of bodily condition for years now with respect to muscle gain and fat loss despite always harping previously on a job with high physical activity). And don't get me started to limits of quantification or even the meaning as it relates to any crudes values conjured thus far. You took it and stopped due to illness (probably unrelated).

And never mind the model problems I explained before or the fact that you are taking an incredibly tiny amount to test with when your beloved KK-Ay subjects were consuming this at ~2% of overall intake (even with factoring for a species-species difference, the amount of active you guys are taking is very low).

If you want to shotgun shit, by all means, go ahead. I'm not opposed to you doing so. Just call it that. Call it a go of it that is unlikely to deliver anything meaningful and, if it does happen to, then bonus, and you can refine further upon such a result.

If it were an uncoupler hit like so many of you are jonesing for, then it would have presented itself as such by now if 1) you guys had been consuming a decent amount and 2) you guys had been able exercise enough self-control so as to eliminate the shitload of other variables involved.

By the way, when a person cannot read a *simple* abstract about parallel experiments wrt picric acid and 2,6-DNP to know that they are completely different compounds or know the difference between 2,6-DNP and 2,4-DNP, well, you should either do more reading or somebody might harm himself or others one day.

Since I do perform (genuine) research, I look at some things with a bit more scrutiny than some of you (not all- you have some good, critical folks here, too). For example, I would not state compound C is superior in its effects on hepatoprotection when compared to compounds A and B unless this was actually researched and measured. For example, in a head-to-head comparison. When you do this without backing it up in a real company that does real research, it's called falsifying information. That, in turn, gets you fired for intellectual dishonesty. So, you see, I don't play lemming in response to be promised all of my hopes and dreams.

If you want me to just let you be, I can do that. In fact, I will. I've said enough that you will either get it or you will not. I know Colin is too psychologically dependent on being on "something" to ever change, even after he has had health problems before, so I am not bothering with him. I figured you might have been worth the time. Only you can make that sort of decision, though. I will go back to lurking as it stands with issues I have raised in recent times. You, Colin, and Steve won't be annoyed by me any longer.

Good luck, Jake.

PhosChol: A Membrane Therapeutic for Liver Disturbances

PPC is incorporated into liver cell membranes in toto as shown with the help of double-radioactive labeling. Clinical studies suggest that PPC:

Restructures Damaged Membranes 1—3
Normalizes Cellular Permeability 4
Improves Cell Metabolism 5—7
Reactivates Membrane-Bound Enzymes 8—9
Stimulates Hepatocyte Regeneration 10—11
For Use In Acute and Chronic Disorders of the Liver
Every year doctors around the world prescribe polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC) to millions of patients with liver disorders. The positive experience doctors and patients have with PPC, the main ingredient in PhosChol, is due to its unique mode of action.

PPC corresponds in its chemical structure to endogenous phospholipids. Due to its high content of bound polyunsaturated fatty acids, however, they are much superior to these.
PPC is incorporated into all cell membrane systems of the cells and organelles, and thus constitutes an integrative component of the membrane.
PPC plays a decisive role in membrane dependent metabolic processes as well as in cell regeneration.
Phospholipid-dependent, membrane-located enzyme activity increases in the presence of PPC.
The polyunsaturated fatty acids released from a part of the molecules constitute prostaglandin precursors.
PPC co-regulates immunological processes.
PPC stabilizes the membranes and counteracts lipid peroxidation due to free radicals.
A loss of phospholipids is seen irrespective of the etiology in liver disorders in which there is damage to the hepatocyte membranes and organelles. Exogenous substitution of phospholipids in the form of PPC leads to the incorporation of PPC into the membranous structures of the liver cell and thus to membrane regeneration. The proof of the unique mode of action and thus the therapeutic relevance of PPC was primarily demonstrated by a large number of different pharmacological studies carried out all over the world and now is continually completed on the basis of new scientific methods.

Clinical Studies Confirm
In numerous international clinical studies with more than 10,000 patients, well-known clinicians checked the therapeutic possibilities of PPC in the treatment of liver disorders of different etiology and confirmed the knowledge gained during pharmacological examinations.

References & Areas of Use
References:
Zierenberg, O. and Grundy, S.M., J. Lipid. Res., 23:1136 (1982).
Dargel R. et al., Z. Gastroenteral. 29 (Suppl. 2):18 (1991).
Lekim, D. and Betzing, H., Arzneimit Forsch, 2: 1772 (1976).
Indovina, J. et al., Epatologica, 27:261 (1981).
Navder K. P. and Lieber C. S., Biochem. Biophys. Res. Commun. 291:1109 (2002).
Müting, D. et al., Verh. Dtsch. Ges. innere Med., 78:1389 (1972).
Kuntz, H. D. it al., Med. Welt., 29:452 (1978).
Chanussot, F. and Benaoel, L., Life Sciences 73:381 (2003).
Saratikov A.S. and Vengerovskii A.I., Biull. Eksp. Biol. Med. 127:392 (1999).
Alliet, J. et al., L’Quest Medical, 29:85 (1976).
Holecek, M. et al., in: Liver and Drugs 1994 edt. by J. Holoman and J. Glasa. Progress in Hepato-Pharmacol. 1:202 (1995).

Here's the full article on PPC and AAS.

Good post.

You've my apologies for the harsh tone I expressed earlier,it was uncalled for.

I'm in agreement with most of what you've said,but not all.I'll address your points later as I'm headed out to do some running ATM but for now I'll say that you certainly have my respect.

I don't get why your apologizing...

Zoalord qoute




The fuco trial I'm doing ATM certainly has variables and is not on par with research done in a clinical setting.

That said,I'll address your other points which have led you to come to the flawed psychoanalysis you've posted about myself.I usually cut weight to a state of leaness that I'm satisfied with during the winter when I am laid off or work is inconsistent as I have no work related stress to deal with,which so far has led to less than optimal eating habits,hence the consistent cutting and "bulking".

I am not a bodybuilder and do not wish to gain LBM.This is virtually impossible due to myy line of work,which I "often harp upon".The work I do is very physically taxing and certainly not aligned with an anabolic environement i.e. read as train, eat,physical rest then rise and repeat.

My "goals" with training at it were are increasing strength,stamina and getting/staying lean.Not getting h'yuuge.I have been successful WRT the former two and at times,successful with the latter as explained.




Fair enough,my next cycle of fuco will be higher,this is an experiment and it does not seem that fuco is especially effective as an uncoupler so far.I was inconsistent during/around Christmas but in the 2 weeks since then I've dropped 2 pounds per week with a consistent modest kcal deficit.I am taking a basic amount of supps,multi,fish oil and sesamin and a stim like Scorch pre w/o,all of which I've been on for two months or more.Yes,I use nicotine via smoking but have smoked for a year prior to fuco.
A refined,clinical trial would consist of a multi and fuco,I'll readily concede to this.





I do not recall citing PPC to be superior to X or XX.I do recall suggesting that this is possible and further research should be done as according to the research that is currently available PPC looks quite promising.

I am not a chemist and yes,I know that 2,4-DNP and 2,6-DNP are different compounds.However,as they are both related,I was *asking* wether 2,6 could have any effect on fat loss if isolated somehow.Again,I am not a chemist.

I was lazy and didn't read the abstracts.I just wanted to know if someone like yourself who was all about chemistry and jazzed up on it if 2,6 could possibly be of any value WRT fat loss.




You get a shiny yellow gold star for your online diagnosis of my psychological dependance issues.Yes,I use drugs to mediate problems in my life to a certain extent.I also use drugs (stimulants and previously AAS) to ease my workload which in turn is also very troublesome.This,despite your contentions,is something that you know absolutely nothing of.

I also use drugs simply for the sake of getting arsed out of my mind i.e.had a hell of a good time with a friend bar hopping last sat on 14mg vicodin and 5-6 light beers.

There is a line through as I never actually stated that I was going to use either any form of DNP (and I certainly will not engage in cycles of androgen again) unless I was sure that it was relatively safe at a lower dosage via a doctor's test beforehand clearing me of either a weakened liver or heart.I know that if I procured some form of DNP (that had merit regarding fat oxidation) and was unable to use it myself at a lower dose due to potential health issues that I could always sell it off to other people.

so plain ol phosphatidylcholine would do nothing then? If one could get a bulk shitload of it and do a bunch then maybe. that was for you, zoalord.

TY for the full text Steve, very informative.

Your quite welcome.

It would depend on the DLPC content of a "shitload" of lecithin PC. However it would still be highly diluted with other fats and phospholipids and thus effectiveness reduced. Using lecithin or regular PC is a waste as there is little DLPC and PPC in lecithin. There is no studies or research showing any real effectiveness of lecithin or regular PC.

Kind of like eating a bunch of eggs to get AA but you also get a bunch of fats and cholesterol.

According to my lecithin container, it is 25% PPC. 1tbsp provides 1.9 grams of PPC. That seems like a fair amount to me and at quite a reasonable price.

What is wrong with the other fats and phospholipids that we should pay a way higher price for pure PPC? (NOW sells 454g of Lecithin for ~$6. That is ~113.5g of PPC for $6.)

PPC is not PC. It's funny people don't know that. If you read the research and understood it you would know lecithin has little to zero research showing it has any benefits. PPC on the other hand is approved as a drug and has been in clinical use for decades in several countries.

By all means if you're on steroids try using just lecithin and see what happens.

Damnit, that's what I get for skimming. PPC != phosphatidylcholine. Doh

I want someone who's training regularly to runa ahigh dose PPC log. I'd voluntear but I need to run something else for a log.

If anyone's interested in running a DLPC log hit me up.

I'll be getting some for my next cycle to do comparitive bloodwork. 25mg dianabol would be the test, right now I'm only taking ALA, NAC, Idebenone and CoQ10 vs next cycle I will add PPC and gauge it's effectiveness (WRT enzymes and lipids, any added body comp is always welcome)

I'd be willing, but I'm coming back from taking December off from the gym. But I'm small and weak anyway.