There have been numerous threads discussing vinegar on this as well as other boards. However, despite all this prior discussion, I think vinegar is possibly the most under-appreciated supplement/food out there. On a few occasions, i tried adding vinegar to each of my meals and EVERY SINGLE TIME I saw a significant leaning effect. In the prior cases I had to stop the regimen because of either inconvenience or because the taste got so tiring. This time, I have taken all measures to continue the experiment for at least several months and thus far in my 3rd week, it is going extremely well. I am definitely leaner (lean bulking right now; up a pound or so in 3 weeks but lost around 1 lbs of fat or possibly more; this is significant because for me it is very hard not to gain fat even when lean bulking, BF around 11% right now). I am presently consuming two shots with each meal. While I do not measure, I am sure this comes out to over 10 cc per meal

Some questions that I am still unable to answer are as follows and I would be excited to hear what other think. Especially Dan had some nice posts on vinegar and I hope he can join us in this thread, too.

1- How much vinegar to consume?
The best estimate I have from earlier discussions is around 5 ml per 100 gr carbs. IS there an updated figure? Can more vinegar produce better results?

2- What kind of vinegar is best?
Many suggested Apple Cider Vinegar as the best choice, but I have never seen anything scientific to back this up. Any idea as to which kind of vinegar is best? (consuming AC vinegar right now)

3- Any benefit in combining vinegar and lemon juice?
There was some speculation that these two may act synergistically but that idea never really caught on

4- Can there be any adverse effect of consuming a shot or two of vinegar with every meal?
Some suggested that in those who already suffer from ulcers, vinegar may be harmful. I presently do not have any health issues but I am consuming a good amount of vinegar and am a little concerned

5- Would vinegar interact with anything?
Any medicines or supplements that it can interact with?

6- Has anyone ever found a way to make vinegar more palatable?

This is it for now, let us please hear some views and we will take it from there

Thanks to all

Sub7

Vinegar may suck balls?

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=31934

Anecdotal feedback (yourself and VirtualCyber,Dan come to mind) indicate it's super-duper for fat loss/recomposition but the risks outweight the potential down sides IMO.

And there is no way to make it more palatable either.

Maybe I am missing something but the link you provided shows that UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS you may not get a net fat loss effect. If I am seeing the opposite with my eyes, on the scale and on the tape, what other risk is there? Can you think of some other unobservable (with the naked eye) risks I am overlooking?

Thanks

Under what conditions?

Both groups had virtually the same reponse,one was healthy and the other diabetic.We're not looking at experiments done on rats.


The second study linked:

Sodium acetate was infused intravenously at 2.5 mmoles/min for 60 min into 6 normal subjects and 6 non-insulin dependent diabetic patients. In control experiments the same subjects received equimolar sodium bicarbonate infusions. Plasma non-esterified fatty acid and blood glycerol levels fell during acetate infusion in both groups, suggesting impairment of lipolysis. The respiratory quotient fell on acetate infusion as expected, although total energy expenditure was unaffected. If acetate oxidation was assumed to be 90 per cent of the infusion rate, then it accounted for about 40 per cent of total oxygen consumption; fat oxidation was reduced, whilst carbohydrate oxidation was unchanged.



******These results suggest that resting energy expenditure is maintained during acetate infusion since acetate replaces fat as an oxidative fuel, without affecting glucose oxidation. The reduction in fat oxidation appears to be due to reduced fat mobilization from adipose tissue. The metabolic effects of acetate infusion are similar in normal and in non-insulin dependent diabetic subjects*****


Acetate replacing fat as oxidative fuel while not having any effect on glucose disposal/shuttling is not at all good news.

I'm too tired ATM to dissect the other study.

Under the conditions unique to that experiment such as potential biases in sample selection, uncontrolled variables and so on; issues that can render any experiment less than fully relevant.

When we look at the logs of people who are generally reliable and reasonable, almost everyone who uses vinegar regularly experiences positive effects on body composition. I am not throwing out the experiment but the results are not in accordance with anecdotal observations. Dan is as careful and diligent an athlete as you will find anywhere and he was very satisfied with vinegar's effect on bodycomp. Me; not so much but in this case, the only thing that I changed was vinegar and it is definitely working.

Besides, what about other MOAs not examined here? Things like insulin sensitivity after a few days of continuous use... There are so many things that can have an effect on lypogenesis and lypolisis.

In sum, scientific research is worth more than anecdotes, no doubt about it. But the research you quote is not looking at net fat gain/loss after days/weeks of continuous vinegar use. Any such research anyone is aware of?

Not much to add, but a few years ago when I was doing my UD2 refeeds I somehow came up with that number...but was later corrected by some people who had done the math way better than me and it turned out to be 30ml per 100grs. May try your luck searching for some of Loki's posts on vinegar.

Yes, many people quite enjoy balsamic vinegar and olive oil, and I personally eat red wine vinegar frequently. I just sprinkled it on some veggies in fact. It adds some 'nip' and flavour but few/no calories, unlike olive oil (which I also love). I'll also add it to dairy sometimes, along with splenda and cinnamon, it's gives it a tangy bite that I really like.

I also believe combining vinegar with dairy can increase the absorption of antioxidants in foods eaten in combination with dairy. Naturally I have no idea where the study is, but (and I mentioned this in that chocolate thread) a few years back there was a study showed that eating milk chocolate and also eating dark chocolate with a glass of milk resulted in no significant antioxidant levels in blood compared to eating pure dark.

So dairy appears to impair absorption. My theory is that it may, at least in part, be a PH issue. This is speculation supported by the fact that untreated cocoa powder (ie it hasn't had alkali added to it) is higher in antioxidants than 'dutched' cocoa. Really, the idea that eating acidic food enhances digestion is not that out there.

So going by this "logic", eating vinegar with chocolate (and possibly other acid-based foods like berries, tomatoes etc) may not only slow gastric emptying but, if these foods were also being combined with dairy (or some other low ph food), vinegar may balance the ph of the meal and enhance digestion/absorption of nutrients.

Case in point, now that I'm done my veggies, I'm eating frozen blueberries, which I enjoy with splenda and plain yogurt. Lately I've taken to adding red wine vinegar to the mix. I actually prefer the flavour.

*Off topic I've also been wondering, since we know vinegar slows gastric emptying, and we know certain high fat foods such as cheese are actually also relatively high GI, does this mean that their GI could also be linked to their PH levels?

P.S. my understanding about apple cider vinegar, as mentioned in that gigantic vinegar thread that was going awhile back, is that it has a number of health benefits, but if you just want acetic acid to slow gastric emptying, you don't need to get it from ACV, you can use any vinegar. I personally find ACV disgusting so I eat red wine vinegar.

Thanks so much Jinx
all valid points, but I must add that the regimen I had in mind goes well well beyond occasional and leasurily use of vinegar. if you add up the ml per 100 gr carbs suggestions floating around, we are talking about basically drinking vinegar, which is very disgusting. i have a strong feeling, however, that such extreme amounts produce very different results from putting some vinegar on veggies to make them taste better. And it must be added that at such amounts, slower gastric emptying is only a minor benefit; many many other thing seem to happen IMO...

Fair enough.

As an afterthought,you could *probably* realize most of the benefits if you capped some Sodium Acetate powder in lieu of drinking vinegar.NOW would be a good brand for this but I've no idea on the amount you'd need per,say an arbitrary 50 grams of cho.As of now I'm staying away from SA or ACV intil clarification is made.

Edit:
S ascorbate,not acetate
http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=2064

So Sodium Ascorbate would act much differently from Ascorbic Acid?

Also, the MOA had been explained before but in most threads only partially. If you don't mind, can you briefly explain again?

Thanks

OK,

I was digging through old threads and came across this one:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...t=0&start=0

Dan was discussing here how alcohol consumption could accelerate fat loss. Check this out:

"Just theoryising here though.............. maybe supplement that would give us massive amounts of acetate could have this benefit for leptin increase with out the negatives of alcohol( taking massive amounts of sodium acetate at once for example)........ giving that acetate stops oxidations of other substrates such as carbs and fat, acetate supplementation would have to be taken alone with no other substrates such as carbs, protein or fat to prevent lipogenesis and get the leptin beneffits that masive amounts of acetate may have on leptin increase.....of course this would be something one would use once or twice maximum a week...in the case of alcohol maybe once or twice a month because we know alcohol sucks for everything else........."


It was also theorized before that vinegar may enhance fat loss through leptin increase. Given that I feel very full -and Dan had reported the same thing while using vinegar- this could make sense.
However, the problem here is that acetate will oxidize instead of other energy substrates and if so, the recommendation to take vinegar with the meals is counterproductive.

In that case, how can we incorporate Vinegar into a)bulking b)cutting diets?
Take with meals, between meals, take multiple times a day vs take a few massive doses per week...? etc

Thanks

small bump

Going with the theory that vinegar actually works (fat oxidation is not inhibited) than it should be taken with/right before a meal as it exerts its effects quickly and shortly.

As an afterthought I'm too lazy to dig through a 30+ page thread and I am tossing the idea of capping some sodium acetate and using that in place of ACV with meals containing 50+ grams carbs.

How much SA should be used per 50 grams of CHO?

giving this a quick bump while at the same time reporting a recent finding: As disgusting as it may sound, mixing milk and vinegar makes it much easier to down the damn thing....

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnn!!!!! are you there? I even sent you a PM to hear your views on this; if you don't love me anymore, just say so.

Sub

Wouldn't mixing milk with vinegar diminish the effect of the acetic acid on gastric emptying/partitioning?

What she said.

Milk+vinegar=bad business

I'd look into HCA,vanadyl sulfate,gymnema sylvestre and corosolic acid along with ALA to avoid the ass taste of vinegar while reaping similiar benefit.

That's part of an order I have on the way ATM.Vinegar would be beneficial on top of these,I'm just offering comparable alternatives.

Do you need help with the calculation or is an application question? (i.e. you are also wondering how much vinegar to take with 50 grams of carbs)

To be clear, I have no problem with mixing milk and vinegar, but if you're looking to benefit from the acetic acid wrt gastric emptying and partitioning, it's not going to optimize it, quite the opposite.

I am convinced that vinegar is doing much much more than just slowing gastric emptying. I have tried almost all imaginable strategies to slow gastric emptying and the effects of vinegar far surpass anything that can be realized by slowing gastric emptying.

"slow gastric emptying and partitioning" ==> disagree with the lumping of these into one. that implies the partiotioning benefits are mainly due to slowing of gastric emptying which I strongly feel is not the case at all

and thanks for the alternatives to vinegar, i will read about them shortly

Fair enough. I guess my point was simply that I think milk would inhibit the GI-lowering effects of vinegar, but it may have no impact on its other benefits. ACV in particular has a lot more to offer than just lowering the GI of carbs.