Soooo, what PCT would M&M recommend for a 12 week Test-E cycle? If I do this, I want to avoid nolva and clomid (for fear of eye damage).

I've heard many differing opinions. A "respected" mod from another forum recommended the following:

HCG: 500iu e3d or 2x/week from weeks 1-13, then in week 14 use 1500iu
PCT (week 15+) = 500iu's HCG e3d for 5 shots along with 25mg Aromasin ed for 6 weeks

Would you recommend aromasin or arimidex ON-cycle? I'm very gyno prone and need to keep estrogen in check.

There are several studies showing that clomid does NOT cause perminent eye damage. Nolva, OTOH, does. Clomid can only cause visual disturbances while using it (I've never noticed any though). So, use clomid.

HCG dose sounds good...maybe only 250mcg E3D...you want to use as little as possible for it to be effective. I used 250mcg EOD with success.

The aromasin dose for PCT sounds good, just make sure to taper it off at the end.

Lastly, I'd say go with arimidex while on cycle...just use maybe .25mg ED for the first few weeks, and if needed, bump up to .5mg ED, but I don't think you will need that.

EDIT: Considering your gyno prone, you may want to keep raloxifene on hand for a gyno flare up.

How do you feel about toremifene?

The study that scared me away from clomid was this one:

Visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene citrate. [Arch Ophthalmol. 1995] - PubMed Result

Visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene citrate.

Purvin VA.
Midwest Eye Institute, Methodist Hospital of Indiana, Indianapolis, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To identify a distinctive constellation of persistent visual abnormalities secondary to treatment with clomiphene citrate. DESIGN: Description of the clinical findings in three patients with visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene treatment. SETTING: A neuro-ophthalmology referral center. PATIENTS: Three women aged 32 to 36 years treated for infertility with clomiphene for 4 to 15 months. RESULTS: All three patients experienced prolonged afterimages (palinopsia), shimmering of the peripheral field, and photophobia while undergoing treatment with clomiphene. The results of the neuro-ophthalmologic examination and electrophysiologic studies were normal in all three patients. Unlike previously reported cases, visual symptoms did not resolve on cessation of treatment. Patients remain symptomatic from 2 to 7 years after discontinuing treatment with the medication. CONCLUSIONS: Treatment with clomiphene can cause prolonged visual disturbance. Patients who develop such symptoms should be advised that continued administration may cause irreversible changes. Women with characteristic visual symptoms should be questioned about past use of clomiphene.
PMID: 7710399 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

HCG is suppressive so it should NEVER be ran during PCT, and I dont even know if I would necessarily run it in the 'clearance time' between the last shot & your PCT.

Also I would NOT recommend using 1500ius of hcg in 1 shot. Your Leydig cells can become desensitized to hcg especially at such a high dose: HCG desensitization

I would recommend 250ius of hcg 2x per week. MAX.

You need a SERM in your PCT, not just an AI. Otherwise all these OTC AI products would be perfectly capable of handling a PCT and noone would use SERMS. But they are not, therefore get a SERM. Low dose clomid or Torem. I think Torem & Ralox together is good.

Wow, I cant believe someone suggested that pct to you but then again I guess I can.

bb

Jeff, why do you prefer arimidex on-cycle as opposed to aromasin?

babyblu, would you recommend HCG from start to finish (last test shot)? How would you does the SERMs and AI on-cycle and in PCT?


if you care, this is where I got the info: here

The balance of the data indicate that the visual disturbances caused by clomid are both very rare with reasonable dosing and go away once the drug is withdrawn. It is the safest SERM for pct use IMO.

If I'm going to take advise from anyone, I trust this forum the most. Would you guys be so kind as to outline what YOU think is the optimal on-cycle/PCT protocol for 12 weeks of test-e? I guess I'll consider clomid, I just hope I don't end up with the rare case of fawked vision. I currently HAVE gyno and seem to be pretty prone to it so take that into account. I'd really appreciate it.

I don't want you to think i'm trying to get by without doing my own research, because I have. I've read many studies but getting second opinions is very helpful for a first-timer.

Following last shot:

Week 1-2: 250iu HCG 2x EW or 100iu ED
Week 2-6: Clomid 50mg/day

Tamoxifen caused long-lasting (been 3 years now) eye damage for me, from 40mg/day over 3 weeks.

Nothing serious, but it is significant.

Benson, why do you think Clomiphene is safer? As has been posted, there are studies demonstrating permanent damage from Clomiphene.

There are plenty of studies showing no damage from long-term Tamoxifen use, yet some people are clearly unlucky like myself.

I used Anastrozole only for a 9 week Enanthate cycle PCT, with 500iu HCG eod pre-PCT for 2 weeks. Seem ok so far, but no bloodwork yet, getting it soon.

Forgot about this thread, sorry P4P...

I'd use arimidex on cycle because really just because it's cheaper, although aromasin works just as well. Also, even though I can't back this up because I don't remember where I read it, it was beneficial for one to switch AIs from on to PCT. Lower dosed arimidex isn't that bad on the joints or anything, and you definitely won't need anything as strong as letro (unless your gyno does in fact gets worse which I would highly doubt on only 500mg test, but even then, ralox should do the trick). I've used both for on cycle gyno prevention and both worked just as well.

Sanitarium: There's ONE study posted that showed clomid caused perminent eye damage. There are many more that show nolva does as well...nolva is proven toxic, clomid is not, why ever use nolva?

This is how I'd go about it exactly (and have with success):


Test E 500mg Weeks 1-12
Arimidex .25mg ED (or even .25mg EOD, use as little as needed) OR Aromasin 12.5-25mg ED Weeks 1-14
HCG 200-250iu E3D Weeks 1-14

*Keep raloxifene on hand for gyno flare up (or letro, both work)

[Give the HCG about 5 days to clear before starting PCT]

PCT:
Clomid 100mg Week 15, then 50mg for another 4-5 weeks (roughly, I'd rather run it longer than necessary to be 100% safe that I'm recovered, I personally just stay on it after PCT at 25mg ED until my next cycle)
Aromasin 25mg Week 15-20 (last two weeks taper down to 12.5mg ED then 12.5 EOD)

You can even add in DS Activate Xtreme to your PCT, which several of us have done and I plan to do again. Wait until week 18 or so, when you think your natty test levels are back up again to start it.

I think UNLESS the gyno starts to flare up, I would not take any AI's during cycle. IF gyno symptoms become a problem then bring in the AI and vit-b complex. Might even try running an OCT AI from the start then moving up to research chem AI if necessary.

Also I would just run 50mg of clomid from start to finish, or maybe taper down to 25mg daily on 4th week of pct. I think the negative side effects of clomid (the emotional disturbances, etc) might occur from high dosages.

I guess use hcg thru the clearance period but I think for test enth its 3 weeks not 2 weeks.

bb

Jeff, surely the study posted proves that Clomiphene can be toxic too. Although AFAIK Clomiphene hasn't been shown to be carcinogenic like Tamoxifen.

What I find strange is that based on what I read on boards, Clomiphene is much, much more likely to give visual side effects, but I've not read anyone complain of permanent damage. Having said that, I have never read of anyone complaining of permanent damage from Tamoxifen either, except myself of course.

Correction, there is a singular study and based on many other studies of clomid use in men for periods of up to a year, the incidence of eye damage is very small. And the even in that study, the damage was not truly permanent, it resolved after several years...not great but not tragic either. Tamoxifen causes real permanent eye damage in as many 5-10% of users...it is also much more likely to induce thrombosis than clomid.

Remember, tamoxifen is a drug that was approved for use by women who are dying of breast cancer and clomid was approved for women looking to have children. The tolerance for serious side effects is quite different.

So we have one case of it and we're all going to go blind? OMG LOLZ. There is a lot nastier side effects than ONE rare occurrence from the other crap we use on this forum.

I agree with babyblu about the use of an AI on cycle...unless it's actually needed, it really shouldn't be used, although, .25mg EOD arimidex isn't going to hurt anything.

Is this your first cycle P4P? If so, how do you know your gyno prone (from androgens)?

Clomid side effects...100mg isn't a lot, and I only suggested it for 1 week. I've ran 100mg for 4 weeks without any negative sides. Great stuff. I still say run it longer than 4 weeks, regardless of dose, and be sure to taper at the end.

Cheers for the info. Although, the way I read that study, said to me that after 2-7 years of monitoring, it had not resolved, not that it took 2-7 years to resolve. Seems a bit ambiguous.




"OMG LOLZ", how old are you?

"CONCLUSIONS: Treatment with clomiphene can cause prolonged visual disturbance."

Prolonged is not permanent and this remains the only clinical study to find visual disturbances associated with clomid use that did not resolve directly after the drug was withdrawn.

first real cycle; I had a bad experience with phera-plex and havoc.

For the pheraplex, I used toremifene as PCT and got gyno in my right nip.

A year later I tried Havoc, hoping it would reduce the gyno symptoms. Near the end of the cycle I bumped it up to 40mg but started to get some really weird soreness in the VERY tips of my nips. So at that point I reduced the havoc to 20mg and started nolva and topical formestane. I did that for a week then switched over to ralox for PCT.

The havoc did get rid of the tenderness in my right nip but I ended up getting a rather large lump under my LEFT nip AND it's very sore (still is).

So, because of those bad experiences, I want to be extra sure I do it right this time. If i were to use an AI on-cycle, is there any chance it would reduce my current gyno?

I'm sorry to hear that. I recently was getting gyno symptoms on 40mg Havoc ED...it's not all it's cracked up to be I'm sorry to say, especially WRT gyno prevention/reduction.

If you were going to try to reduce your current gyno while on cycle, more than likely you'd need to go with letro as your AI. That's what I'm currently using...works great, just be ready for some crappy side effects. You said your gyno is still sore...in that case, I personally would definitely use letro to get it under control and maybe get rid of it. Then, just taper your dose down for the rest of the cycle to control gyno/bloat to something like .6mg EOD or ED (if needed). PM me for any additional info on that.

So the aromasin should be run longer than the SERM, correct? As per Jeff's post, 4-5 weeks of clomid and 6 weeks of aromasin

Nah, I'd say equal time. 6 weeks of both. Just make sure to taper down at the end of each.

EDIT: Actually, if anything, I'd run the clomid longer than the AI. Clomid's quite safe, but running AIs for an extended period of time...well, just isn't a grand idea. But, just a cycle's worth and you'll be straight.

I agree, you want some estrogen eventually in your system. Otherwise your libido will probably be non-existent; see NHA stack's libido killing effx.

bb