OK so there are people that complain about "back pumps" while they are on hormonal gear. Does anyone have an explanation why that happens? And why taurine is supposed to alleviate it.
When I bust out a heavy back workout on a carb-up day I get the feeling of tightness and discomfort. I guess that is a backpump as far as I know. I am not on any hormonal gear either.
I'm trying to workout how I can make it less of an annoyance. Mechanisms of action and supplemental help would be appreciated.
Full Version: Back pumps
Only thing that helps me is aspirin.
I wonder, too. I worry that it has to do with kidney issues. There's a thread on this at leanbulk.com by dinoii but I don't really feel like taking the time to look it up right now. It doesn't have anything definitive, but some interesting speculation by an MD.
I started drinking TONS of water while on Havoc this last time and completely avoided the back pumps despite higher dosage. Right now I'm using andractim and getting bothersome back pumps, but not sure if it's just coincidental with the androgen.
I would like to see more discussion on this... Bump... ish.
I started drinking TONS of water while on Havoc this last time and completely avoided the back pumps despite higher dosage. Right now I'm using andractim and getting bothersome back pumps, but not sure if it's just coincidental with the androgen.
I would like to see more discussion on this... Bump... ish.
EVERYTHING pumps while on stuff like tren, d-ball, adrol. and some PH's. The difference is your back is under constant tension while just standing let alone lifting anything. I have had lifters tell me their arm pumps while brushing their teeth. It is not kidney or orgaon related, just a LOT of creatine and nutrient loading and VERY volumized muscle cells.
IA
IA
Really?
QUOTE
Kidney Blood Press Res. 2008 Mar 4;31(2):71-79 [Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
Testosterone and Blood Pressure Regulation.
Kienitz T, Quinkler M.
Clinical Endocrinology, Department of Internal Medicine, Gastroenterology, Hepatology and Endocrinology, Charité Campus Mitte, Charité Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Berlin, Germany.
Background: There is substantial evidence that androgens may play a role in determining sex-specific blood pressure. Men are at higher risk for developing coronary heart disease or hypertension compared to premenopausal women. However, effects of androgens on the renal and cardiovascular system are complex. This review provides a critical overview of testosterone actions. Methods: We searched Pubmed library for experimental, animal and clinical studies, using the keywords 'blood pressure', 'hypertension', 'testosterone' and 'androgens'. Results: While acute administration of testosterone seems to decrease vascular tone, the long-term net effect of androgens appears to be vasoconstriction via upregulation of thromboxane A(2) expression, norepinephrine synthesis, angiotensin II expression, and endothelin-1 action. Furthermore, androgens cause cardiac hypertrophy, promote atherosclerosis, vascular remodelling and stimulate renal prohypertensive processes involving the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Androgens seem to promote oxidative stress in the kidney and may also play a role in the differentiation of brain areas involved in blood pressure regulation. Conclusion: The effects of sex steroids on different parts of the renal-vascular system are complex and often contradictory. In sum, net effects of androgen action seem to be vasoconstriction, atherosclerosis and stimulation of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Therefore, androgens may determine blood pressure and the prevalence of cardiovascular disease. Copyright © 2008 S. Karger AG, Basel.
PMID: 18319594 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Testosterone and Blood Pressure Regulation.
Kienitz T, Quinkler M.
Clinical Endocrinology, Department of Internal Medicine, Gastroenterology, Hepatology and Endocrinology, Charité Campus Mitte, Charité Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Berlin, Germany.
Background: There is substantial evidence that androgens may play a role in determining sex-specific blood pressure. Men are at higher risk for developing coronary heart disease or hypertension compared to premenopausal women. However, effects of androgens on the renal and cardiovascular system are complex. This review provides a critical overview of testosterone actions. Methods: We searched Pubmed library for experimental, animal and clinical studies, using the keywords 'blood pressure', 'hypertension', 'testosterone' and 'androgens'. Results: While acute administration of testosterone seems to decrease vascular tone, the long-term net effect of androgens appears to be vasoconstriction via upregulation of thromboxane A(2) expression, norepinephrine synthesis, angiotensin II expression, and endothelin-1 action. Furthermore, androgens cause cardiac hypertrophy, promote atherosclerosis, vascular remodelling and stimulate renal prohypertensive processes involving the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Androgens seem to promote oxidative stress in the kidney and may also play a role in the differentiation of brain areas involved in blood pressure regulation. Conclusion: The effects of sex steroids on different parts of the renal-vascular system are complex and often contradictory. In sum, net effects of androgen action seem to be vasoconstriction, atherosclerosis and stimulation of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Therefore, androgens may determine blood pressure and the prevalence of cardiovascular disease. Copyright © 2008 S. Karger AG, Basel.
PMID: 18319594 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Yes, really. You can post up one abstract and it will have little effect on my personal experience doing gear and getting EXTREME back pumps and working with 100's of lifters over the years that have done gear and exchanged experiences.
I love when the guys that got all their experience out of a book or website talk about what they have never done. Not to difficult to tell your spinal erectors from your kidneys. Ever deadlifted before, or just read about it?
IA
I love when the guys that got all their experience out of a book or website talk about what they have never done. Not to difficult to tell your spinal erectors from your kidneys. Ever deadlifted before, or just read about it?
IA
QUOTE (Iron Addict @ Mar 26 2008, 09:13 PM) 
Not to difficult to tell your spinal erectors from your kidneys. Ever deadlifted before, or just read about it?
Actually, it seems to be a pretty common mixup. The back pumps (for me) were bad with DLs, but even more intense when driving.
QUOTE (Iron Addict @ Mar 26 2008, 11:13 PM)
Yes, really. You can post up one abstract and it will have little effect on my personal experience doing gear and getting EXTREME back pumps and working with 100's of lifters over the years that have done gear and exchanged experiences.
Oh, how silly of me, your word is obviously the gospel then. Not the educated and intelligent people doing the studies and reviewing the literature. "The plural of anecdote is not data." -Benson
Explain to me how having worked with hundreds of lifters who have had sore backs means that it's not their kidneys? I fail to see the mutual exclusion.
QUOTE
I love when the guys that got all their experience out of a book or website talk about what they have never done. Not to difficult to tell your spinal erectors from your kidneys. Ever deadlifted before, or just read about it?
IA
IA
Quite the cliche and uneffective rebuttal. You have no idea how I train or what I've used. Go back to your "I'll start a post but not respond as I get my ass handed to me" ways.
Well, it was a misinturpretation of the literature anyways. Oxidative stress does not=pumps. Minor inflamation with correct use, but not pumps.
Would this also have anything to do with "being winded" on gear?
Wait -- I've never heard much about that side effect. Does AAS make you out of breath more easily? I'm finishing a month of andractim use and find myself unnaturally out of breath -- I mean even a single flight of stairs gets my blood pumping a little -- and it's been freaking me out a bit. Is this normal?
I experienced this while on Epichlorol. Heavy lifting does it to me something fierce. Rest times certainly have to increase simply because I need it to catch my breath.
My back pumps that I've always gotten from the epi clones are definitely not kidneys, but I can only speak for myself.
My back pumps that I've always gotten from the epi clones are definitely not kidneys, but I can only speak for myself.
QUOTE (dashforce @ Apr 1 2008, 09:37 AM)
Wait -- I've never heard much about that side effect. Does AAS make you out of breath more easily? I'm finishing a month of andractim use and find myself unnaturally out of breath -- I mean even a single flight of stairs gets my blood pumping a little -- and it's been freaking me out a bit. Is this normal?
Most of the stronger androgens make me get winded just doing the stairs......BP issues, and out of breath big time....
Sex makes me feel like I am dying...even when not bulked up.
Aromatizers are worse IMO.
QUOTE (Iron Addict @ Mar 26 2008, 10:13 PM)
Yes, really. You can post up one abstract and it will have little effect on my personal experience doing gear and getting EXTREME back pumps and working with 100's of lifters over the years that have done gear and exchanged experiences.
I love when the guys that got all their experience out of a book or website talk about what they have never done. Not to difficult to tell your spinal erectors from your kidneys. Ever deadlifted before, or just read about it?
IA
I love when the guys that got all their experience out of a book or website talk about what they have never done. Not to difficult to tell your spinal erectors from your kidneys. Ever deadlifted before, or just read about it?
IA
I've experienced it on days I haven't done back at all.
There is a very noticeable difference between deadlift tightness and androgen back pumps - with androgens it is very uncomfortable and persistent and I recall having trouble sleeping because of it.
Some people do get confused between kidney pain and lower back pumps. Putting that aside...
Its just the same as training your arms and getting a pump. Apart from its your back...
So anything which requires the contraction of the Spinae Erector (From deads, to standing OHP etc) will contribute in some part to a lower back pump.
High Carb days will obviously increase fluid retention through Glycogen replenishment.
Drink plenty of water and take a good multi mineral to keep fluids in balance.
At least thats how I understand it. If you are bored you can probably hunt through pubmed for some science.
Its just the same as training your arms and getting a pump. Apart from its your back...
So anything which requires the contraction of the Spinae Erector (From deads, to standing OHP etc) will contribute in some part to a lower back pump.
High Carb days will obviously increase fluid retention through Glycogen replenishment.
Drink plenty of water and take a good multi mineral to keep fluids in balance.
At least thats how I understand it. If you are bored you can probably hunt through pubmed for some science.
QUOTE (Tall @ Apr 1 2008, 02:40 PM)
Some people do get confused between kidney pain and lower back pumps. Putting that aside...
Its just the same as training your arms and getting a pump. Apart from its your back...
Its just the same as training your arms and getting a pump. Apart from its your back...
I don't see the logic here. We're agreeing that we often are not training our back when it pumps painfully; for me, it's terrible when I drive my car. If you are insinuating that the constant activation of the erector spinae in maintaining posture is sufficient to cause this extremely painful pump, then why don't our calves, neck, upper back, or other core muscles (constantly activated as well) cause the same discomfort?
QUOTE (dashforce @ Apr 1 2008, 09:17 PM)
I don't see the logic here. We're agreeing that we often are not training our back when it pumps painfully; for me, it's terrible when I drive my car. If you are insinuating that the constant activation of the erector spinae in maintaining posture is sufficient to cause this extremely painful pump, then why don't our calves, neck, upper back, or other core muscles (constantly activated as well) cause the same discomfort?
What would you suggest it is...?
I'm sticking to my explaination above. Orals like Dbol etc are well know for causing lower back pumps as well as crazy calf pumps.
Neck - I have no idea on that on. Perhaps its something as simple as its a difficult place for the body to retain water due to its elevated position.
Walking can even cause painful lower back pumps, shin splints are common
QUOTE (Tall @ Apr 1 2008, 05:26 PM)
What would you suggest it is...?
this is the discussion. Two tomatoes are walking down the street. A momma tomato and a baby tomato....
I'd enjoy some insight on where it is back pumps seem to occur by seemingly irrelevant activities... Ditto on the driving and sitting in a movie theater chair.
Walking at an incline is almost debilitating.
QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Apr 2 2008, 07:43 AM)
this is the discussion. Two tomatoes are walking down the street. A momma tomato and a baby tomato....
I'd enjoy some insight on where it is back pumps seem to occur by seemingly irrelevant activities... Ditto on the driving and sitting in a movie theater chair.
Walking at an incline is almost debilitating.
I'd enjoy some insight on where it is back pumps seem to occur by seemingly irrelevant activities... Ditto on the driving and sitting in a movie theater chair.
Walking at an incline is almost debilitating.
Running kills me too....
Between the crippling calf pumps and tight back pump I pretty much fall over. The first time I felt this was with test/dbol...had to run for an Army eval....
What a nice surprise it was....wow.
QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Apr 2 2008, 02:43 PM)
this is the discussion. Two tomatoes are walking down the street. A momma tomato and a baby tomato....
I'd enjoy some insight on where it is back pumps seem to occur by seemingly irrelevant activities... Ditto on the driving and sitting in a movie theater chair.
Walking at an incline is almost debilitating.
I'd enjoy some insight on where it is back pumps seem to occur by seemingly irrelevant activities... Ditto on the driving and sitting in a movie theater chair.
Walking at an incline is almost debilitating.
I'd place the 87p I have in my pocket down on a bet those were issues specific to the individual. Bad posture, incorrect car seat position etc would all case activation of the Spinae Erector.
I can't go to the cinema and sit in their chairs for longer than 30mins without getting up and stretching - my hips feel as though they are about to pop out.
From where I'm sitting (which isn't in a cinema chair...) it all makes sense. Although I could be wrong
QUOTE (Tall @ Apr 2 2008, 01:24 PM)
I'd place the 87p I have in my pocket down on a bet those were issues specific to the individual. Bad posture, incorrect car seat position etc would all case activation of the Spinae Erector.
I can't go to the cinema and sit in their chairs for longer than 30mins without getting up and stretching - my hips feel as though they are about to pop out.
From where I'm sitting (which isn't in a cinema chair...) it all makes sense. Although I could be wrong
I can't go to the cinema and sit in their chairs for longer than 30mins without getting up and stretching - my hips feel as though they are about to pop out.
From where I'm sitting (which isn't in a cinema chair...) it all makes sense. Although I could be wrong
Sir,
I must echo my good friend here.
QUOTE (dashforce @ Apr 1 2008, 05:17 PM)
I don't see the logic here. We're agreeing that we often are not training our back when it pumps painfully; for me, it's terrible when I drive my car. If you are insinuating that the constant activation of the erector spinae in maintaining posture is sufficient to cause this extremely painful pump, then why don't our calves, neck, upper back, or other core muscles (constantly activated as well) cause the same discomfort?
QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Apr 2 2008, 05:36 PM)
Sir,
I must echo my good friend here.
I must echo my good friend here.
My good man,
I've shown you that Calves do get pumped.
The neck I've postulated.
Feel free to engage in discussion though - I'll accept that my views are incorrect if you can show me some reasons why they are. At the moment I'm not seeing any reasons just questions. Sadly, I don't have all the answers - but I would be interested to know the answers to the questions you've raised.
I'd love to discuss, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
Here we've had numerous reports of back pumps while not doing anything but maintaining posture. I've never had shin splints, calf pumps, ab/oblique pumps, or any other muscle associated with posture pump up so intensely it's painful except my spinae erectors.
Just saying shin splints can occur doesn't really say much other than conjecture which no one has supported and even if they did it still explains nothing.
The neck is constantly exerting effort to hold your head up. It doesn't balance on top of your spine and is a vertically erect muscle... Much like spinae erectors.... Again, I'm confused where you're coming from as I'm not sure I understand what/where your theory on the cause is...
Here we've had numerous reports of back pumps while not doing anything but maintaining posture. I've never had shin splints, calf pumps, ab/oblique pumps, or any other muscle associated with posture pump up so intensely it's painful except my spinae erectors.
Just saying shin splints can occur doesn't really say much other than conjecture which no one has supported and even if they did it still explains nothing.
The neck is constantly exerting effort to hold your head up. It doesn't balance on top of your spine and is a vertically erect muscle... Much like spinae erectors.... Again, I'm confused where you're coming from as I'm not sure I understand what/where your theory on the cause is...
FWIW, on SD I had back pumps when I would sit down (in car or any seat) for more than 30 minutes. On Epi, I couldn't sleep until I started taking taurine, because when I would lay down the pumps were EXTREMELY INTENSE. Finally, on Var, I could not run on pavement because the back/calf pumps were unbearable. I could use the elliptical though....not a problem.
I've used taurine from 1g to 10g/day, and no difference in pumps whether off or on and still don't see how it would help. Mag/K+ helps from my experience.
QUOTE (Jakeshorts @ Apr 2 2008, 07:20 PM)
I'd love to discuss, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
Here we've had numerous reports of back pumps while not doing anything but maintaining posture. I've never had shin splints, calf pumps, ab/oblique pumps, or any other muscle associated with posture pump up so intensely it's painful except my spinae erectors.
Just saying shin splints can occur doesn't really say much other than conjecture which no one has supported and even if they did it still explains nothing.
The neck is constantly exerting effort to hold your head up. It doesn't balance on top of your spine and is a vertically erect muscle... Much like spinae erectors.... Again, I'm confused where you're coming from as I'm not sure I understand what/where your theory on the cause is...
Here we've had numerous reports of back pumps while not doing anything but maintaining posture. I've never had shin splints, calf pumps, ab/oblique pumps, or any other muscle associated with posture pump up so intensely it's painful except my spinae erectors.
Just saying shin splints can occur doesn't really say much other than conjecture which no one has supported and even if they did it still explains nothing.
The neck is constantly exerting effort to hold your head up. It doesn't balance on top of your spine and is a vertically erect muscle... Much like spinae erectors.... Again, I'm confused where you're coming from as I'm not sure I understand what/where your theory on the cause is...
Appologies. I'd written the above too quickly, and you'd picked on my statement of:
QUOTE
So anything which requires the contraction of the Spinae Erector (From deads, to standing OHP etc) will contribute in some part to a lower back pump.
When the statements of its the same as any muscle pump and fluid retention statment was the more important one. My bad. I never was good at multi-tasking.
Ok.
On cycle you will have increased fluid retention, and increased blood plasma volume & RBC.
So the painful pumps are a result of having increased fluid retention.
High Carb diets - as are common on cycle - will increase glyogen storage and thus water retention.
Shins / Calves / Spinae Erector all seem highly susceptible to getting bad pumps, whether you have been training them or not. These muscles are flexing and contracting all the time.
For whatever reason Abs/Obliques/Psoas/Neck etc don't seem to get pumped. This will either be because they are not flexing and contracting all the time, possibly due to muscle depth or muscle fibre type.
I've never had a pump in my abs when training them for example... They just burn when trained hard.
If that still doesn't make sense then I shall just have to go and hide under a rock
Okay, well a pumpable-vs-nonpumpable muscle theory sounds mildly plausible
Assuming that's the case,
1 -- Any ideas on why Jake and I both got hella back pumps from havoc and epichlorol, but no calf pumps whatsoever (if this were a fluid retention issue, I wouldn't expect it to be very selective between "pumpable" muscles).
2 -- Why isn't there a significant loss of (fluid) weight after a epi clone cycle (back pumps are common here)? As a non-aromatizing steroid, gains seem to be pretty bloat free, and after the cycle weight seems to stay constant or even keep increasing for many (myself included) for at least a month or so afterward. If it were fluid retention, wouldn't that fluid weight dissipate relatively quickly? Perhaps it's an increase in hematocrit w/o an increase in absolute fluid volume?
Assuming that's the case,
1 -- Any ideas on why Jake and I both got hella back pumps from havoc and epichlorol, but no calf pumps whatsoever (if this were a fluid retention issue, I wouldn't expect it to be very selective between "pumpable" muscles).
2 -- Why isn't there a significant loss of (fluid) weight after a epi clone cycle (back pumps are common here)? As a non-aromatizing steroid, gains seem to be pretty bloat free, and after the cycle weight seems to stay constant or even keep increasing for many (myself included) for at least a month or so afterward. If it were fluid retention, wouldn't that fluid weight dissipate relatively quickly? Perhaps it's an increase in hematocrit w/o an increase in absolute fluid volume?
How about constant incorrect posture...............
so simple and yet maybe , just maybe, so true.
so simple and yet maybe , just maybe, so true.
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