I've been using it everyday for some time, and before it kicks in/if I don't take it I feel real groggy, unable to concentrate/can't get interested in things.

Neither are addictive compounds. You do have a rather unique brain chemistry though.

I think that once you ask the question, the answer is implied.

And you make this statement about PEA based on what? I have a problem in general with the terminology of "addiction", but certainly if you consider amphetamine addictive (and you do) then I don't really see why exogenous supplementation of PEA, which can create rapid euphoria with a rapid comedown, couldn't lead similarly to addictive-type behaviors.

I have to agree that the potential for addiction is there. Psychological addiction, if nothing else. I'm not speaking about low dose deprenyl + low dose PEA as an antidepressant; I mean recreational use. If I take them together in higher doses, the experience certainly has an "addictive" sort of feel to it. Particularly in the way I can get that rapid sense of euphoria and maintain the high indefinitely by taking more PEA every half hour. It's a little like cocaine in that regard, not that it's anywhere near as powerful.

Yes it is very addictive. Anything that induces the reward system in your brain with such a short half-life will ultimately make you crave for more. Trust me i know.

Dep + PEA produces insane euphoria for me, yet I don't find it addictive. I take dep all the time, and can have plenty of PEA sitting around and not feel any desire to take it for weeks/months at a time, or until the setting is right. But then again, I really don't have addictive traits towards anything...so it could be just me.

Based on research.
I only consider addictive compounds that have proven to cause actual addiction addictive. Psychological addiction can occur with vitamin C.




Psychological addiction is a powerful drug.



You may have abused one too many drugs.



Well said. Marc is immune to Psychological addiction.

Marc, what are "safe" dosages when combining these two?

I would suggest no higher than used in the studies with no tolerance was found.
I've been using deprenyl since 95.

okay, well then can you possibly point me in the direction of the studies. I was looking at caps containing 250 mg of PEA and 50 mg Hordenine

Pubmed. Hordenine is an unproven compound. It's not approved as a drug in any country, has been studied in humans, or has proven selective MAO-B inhibiting effects in animals.

I like 5mg dep + 600-800mg PEA (for the full effect).

Anything more than 800mg PEA my chest gets bright red and I have a hard time breathing, and the positive effects don't increase accordingly.

I think Steve takes 1g+, but I can't handle it.

For mild mood elevation/energy I like 5mg dep + 100-200mg PEA.

Hordenine doesn't seem to have nearly the same effects on MAO-B inhibition, its really inconsistent. I wouldn't bother with it unless you have a problem getting deprenyl for some reason.

If you are going through withdrawal cycles then I would say, yes, for you it is addictive in some fashion (whether physical or psychological we don't know).

However, given what is known about PEA and the theory surrounding the purported effects, the combination is particularly congenial to chemical addiction. PEA, the "endogenous amphetamine," increases dopamine release - an effect that is intensified by selegiline, and is reported (in anecdotal feedback) to cause euphoria - such are the characteristics of addictive substances.

I don't doubt that certain predispositions determine in large measure whether one is susceptible to such an addictive tendency, though the magnitude of the likelihood is compounded dramatically by virtue of what is already known about the two substances.

I personally take 1-2 grams as needed. If I'm taking deprenyl 5-10 mg I use a much smaller dose of PEA and don't have a any problems.

Can we see that contributing research?



Seriously, how can someone bullshit as much as you?

PEA (with MAO-B wiped out) does the same exact shit as methamphetamine. It has a much shorter duration -- which increases addictive potential.

If you consider amphetamine compounds addictive (and you do), then PEA is addictive in the same way.

Try reading pubmed.

Everything I've said based on my experiences, our medical doctor's, and actual clinical studies of PEA and Deprenyl however name calling isnt needed because you don't "believe me" or happen to have the same amount of knowledge I have on the matter.

If you care to prove your statements I would be interested in seeing clinical studies show PEA (with MAO-B "wiped out") has the same exact effects as meth. Thats alot of neurochemical effects.

Not all amphetamines are addictive and you have presented zero proof that PEA is a addictive compound. Dsade has been selling PEA longer than me perhaps you can ask him his opinion.

Ok based on this statement your saying that i'm wrong. That i have abused too many drugs to know that constantly seeking reward is not addictive behavior. Sure i've done my share, but anecdotal data (imo) is priceless and saying that its not an addictive drug based on the research you've done is being careless.

I guess these monkeys also have abused many drugs to know what is addictive and what's not.

Psychomotor stimulant effects of beta-phenylethylamine in monkeys treated with MAO-B inhibitors
by
Bergman J, Yasar S, Winger G.
Harvard Medical School, McLean Hospital/ADARC,
115 Mill Street, Belmont, MA 02478, USA,
jbergman@hms.harvard.edu
Psychopharmacology (Berl) 2001 Dec;159(1):21-30

i'm sure you've read this already..

Monkeys are not humans. Human studies show zero proof that PEA and/or Deprenyl is addictive. It does show it is quite an effective treatment for depression and produces no tolerance and no side effects when used as directed.

I don't have the slightest doubt that proprietors of PEA "hype" the positive effects demonstrated from a limited number of studies, and ignore/deny any deleterious effect the product will have on future health (e.g. dependence/addiction that some seem to have experienced). However, it is up to the consumer to be a responsible party and further investigate claims made on the labels of supplements and grey-area substances, and obvious market assumptions would indicate that such information would not be provided by the marketer unless the information was legally mandated.

Whether or not PEA + deprenyl is, categorically, addictive is unknown. But given what we do know, the biochemical basis for such a dependent state exists in the case of the present combination by virtue of the described mechanism of action, e.g. acting as a CNS "endogenous amphetamine" to increase energy and alertness levels. The fact that case-reports emerge concerning addiction should be no surprise if the claims have a morsel of truth, which is why forums like this exist in order to "shake-out" the details, complications and unstated side effects of various products on the market.

Is there any clinical evidence of addiction or other deleterious effects, short or long term, or are you basing this solely on anecdotal evidence?

10-60mg a day! Everyone here is doing +250mg day. Does not compare.

C'mon now.. now your just playing with us right!? Effective for treatment and produces no tolerance when used as directed.... 10-60mg a day. Who here is using PEA at 10-60mg a day?!? Be honest with yourself and customers, you even sell 250mg caps.

P.S. Monkey's may not be human, but we can get a pretty good idea of what a drug does through them. As much as you want to defend your position (for reasons known) you know deep down what you say is smoke and mirrors... So i'm done after this.

If you want to see what PEA has the potential of doing... research this forum. You'll get a good REAL WORLD idea of its potential.

If we consider the evidence indicating "amphetamine-like" qualities attributed to beta-PEA to be addictive, then there is plenty of supporting evidence, especially with respect to inducing certain locomotor "stereotyped" behaviors in animal models and the increase in dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens (a characteristic action of drugs of abuse) while acting through G-coupled protein receptor sites - a mechanism shared by amphetamine. Similarities in structure and effect comprise the evidence suggesting addictive potential, rather than clinical trials examining abuse potential, which has seldomly been written about or investigated in the annals of medical research.

Steve is definitely right in one aspect, this combo does not appear to be physically addicting according to existing research. Or rather, there is no research yet showing it to be.

But it is plain-as-fucking-day there is massive psychological addiction potential. While it would be nice to be able to cite this, I don't need dudes in lab-coats to tell me it will hurt to get punched in the face, in parallel I don't need studies to say with great confidence that a compound with euphoric properties like PEA has in supraphysiological doses with a tiny half-life will be addicting as fuck psychologically. Especially when I have experienced it first-hand.

To the OP perhaps you are running low on some neurotransmitters and should purchase some L-Tyrosine and get more sleep.

Excellent post Gahan.

J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neurosci, 1996 Spr, 8:2, 168-71
Sustained antidepressant effect of PEA replacement

Sabelli H; Fink P; Fawcett J; Tom C Rush University and the Center for Creative Development, Chicago, Illinois, USA.

Phenylethylamine (PEA), an endogenous neuroamine, increases attention and activity in animals and has been shown to relieve depression in 60% of depressed patients. It has been proposed that PEA deficit may be the cause of a common form of depressive illness. Fourteen patients with major depressive episodes that responded to PEA treatment (10-60 mg orally per day, with 10 mg/day selegiline to prevent rapid PEA destruction) were reexamined 20 to 50 weeks later. The antidepressant response had been maintained in 12 patients. Effective dosage did not change with time. There were no apparent side effects. PEA produces sustained relief of depression in a significant number of patients, including some unresponsive to the standard treatments. PEA improves mood as rapidly as amphetamine but does not produce tolerance.

It is addictive - I'd literally consider myself a recovering PEA+Deprenyl Addict. It became the main focus of my life - for the first time bodybuilding/research came 2nd and if I didn't have the correct combo I would often just stay in bed all day as nothing had the same residual pleasure - even mundane activities - as when seen through the eyes of the pea+deprenyl buzz. I had to take it every 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Alcohol, MJ, ectasy, even caffeine+ephedrine(yes, me likes me "speeders" ) didnt' come close to the continual high of PEA. Eventual, though, the excessive mood swings, impairment in judgement in order to obtain PEA - like any drug - produced financial hazards and personality alterations that were life-changing at the time.

My upcoming article for M&M delves breifly into how PEA is addictive via its stimulation of the same pathways as opiates, nicotine, alcohol, barbituates. A brief excerpt"

"PEA is a psychomotor stimulant meaning that it positively enhances the interplay between motor - or muscular - and mental activities or processes. A slowing in this process is typical of depressive disorders. This psychomotor activation, some research supports, is one of the driving forces behind addictive behaviors. A specific pathway of dopaminergic neurons present in the midbrain, limbic, cortical regions, nucleus accumbens, and amygdala of the brain is altered during self-reinforcing activities(13. These regions, termed the mesocorticolimbic system, are the “drive” centers of the brain that function in incentive motivation and reward. Alcohol, barbiturates, nicotine, opiates, benzodiazepines, marijuana and yes, psychomotor stimulants, (i.e. PEA) all trigger this pathway (11, 12). By prolonging the activity and levels of dopamine and other neurotransmitters, pea can produce changes in the motivational pathways making an individual more prone to drug-seeking behaviors. These pathways are actually very similar to those that mature during memory formation and the learning process. Glutamate is the major excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain and alterations occur in its expression and in neurons to which it binds when these rewarding habits or new skills are developing (15)."

11. Terry E Robinson, Kent C Berridge (2000)
The psychology and neurobiology of addiction: an incentive-sensitization view
Addiction 95 (8s2), 91–117.
12. Pan, Wynn H. T., Hsieh, Min-Chien, Wu, Hsiao-Hua & Lin, Shi-Kwang
Difference in magnitude of psychostimulant-induced extracellular norepinephrine in the ventral tegmental area contributes to discrepant prefrontal dopamine outflow.
Addiction Biology 12 (1), 51-58.
13. Kalivas PW, Nakamura M (1999) Neural systems for behavioral activation and reward. Curr Opin Neurobiol 9:223–227.

Yes.

Wow, I take 2500-4000mg per day of PEA with my deprenyl.

Has anyone tried snorting PEA? I take a shot in the morning with 5mg of Deprenyl.

burns like crazy...works though, and fast. requires very little, too. (i've only done it a handful of times)

I don't know to what extent PEA + deprenyl is addictive, if at all. However, if someone believes that amphetamine is addictive and/or "unhealthy" I don't know what would be the reason to think that PEA + deprenyl would have different properties in that regard. I think that in things like these there's a huge bias, since one is considered less harmful/addictive than the other taking into account its schedule status.

If PEA+deprenyl were a scheduled drug and amphetamine somehow hadn't been patented, etc. and were sold as a supplement at bodybuilding stores, I'm sure that many people would say "amphetamine is not as addictive as PEA+deprenyl, since it is a supplement and not a drug". Let's not bias our thoughts by something like bureocratic classifications.

I'm not saying that PEA+deprenyl is "bad", nor am I trying to demonize it. I'm just trying to get rid of the notion that if compound A is a supplement, while compound B is a drug, therefore compound B is less healthy than compound A. The body just doesn't work like that.