First check out these graphs;

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...ull/42/5/665/F3

This is the effect of a traditional oriental mixture of herbs on inflammatory cytokines in joints of mice induced to have arthrititis;

http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...t/full/42/5/665

The herbs;

Chaenomelis Fructus, Achyranthis Radix, Carthami Flos, Cnidii Rhizoma and Cinnamomi Cortex are known for their functions in maintaining or assisting blood circulation. Angelica Radix and Gastrodiae Rhizoma were chosen for their activities in ‘tonifying’ the blood. Ledebouriellae Radix is reported to catalyse the function of other reagents. Gentianae Macrophylla Radix and Acanthopanacis Cortex are reported to assist in the functions of both muscle and bone, while Clematidis Radix and Phlomidis Radix have been used for protection against degeneration of cartilage and regeneration of damaged tissue

Any supplement company have this made into capsules?

I m interested.

Thanks.

Renwosing

Yeh those herbs must be one of the 1000 ingredients in the new muscletech/muscle asylum products. Just add water.

This is probably via a completely different mechanism, but I just came across this and thuoght it worth posting;

Life Sci. 2003 Feb 21;72(14):1563-71.
The collagenolytic effects of the traditional Chinese medicine preparation, Han-Dan-Gan-Le, contribute to reversal of chemical-induced liver fibrosis in rats.
Li C, Luo J, Li L, Cheng M, Huang N, Liu J, Waalkes MP.
Department of Pharmacology, Guiyang Medical College, China.
li8@niehs.nih.gov Han-Dan-Gan-Le (HDGL), a Chinese herb preparation composed of Stephaniat tetrandra, Salvia miltorrhiza, Radix paeoniae, Astragalus membranaceus, and Ginkgo biloba, has been used to treat human liver fibrosis. This study was designed to examine the therapeutic effect of HDGL on chemical-induced liver fibrosis in adult Wistar rats. Liver fibrosis was produced in rats by carbon tetrachloride (1.2 ml CCl(4)/kg, 2 times/week, after an initial dose of 5.0 ml CCl(4)/kg, sc), plus a diet of 20% fat, 0.05% cholesterol (continuous) and 30% alcohol in the drinking water ad libitum (every other day) for 8 weeks. HDGL (0.5 and 1.0 g/kg, ig, daily for 6 weeks) was administered to rats 72 hrs after the last dose of CCl(4) to examine its therapeutic effects on chemical-induced liver fibrosis. Upon pathological examination, the HDGL treatment had significantly reversed chemical-induced liver fibrosis and other hepatic lesions. Hepatic collagen accumulation induced by CCl(4) was markedly reduced by HDGL treatment, as evidenced by hepatic collagen content and by immunohistochemical analysis of type-I collagen in liver. HDGL appeared to stimulate the collagenolytic process in the liver, as a 30-50% increase in urinary excretion of hydroxyproline was observed with HDGL treatment as compared to rats only given CCl(4). In conclusion, HDGL can effectively reverse chemically induced liver fibrosis, and this appears to be due, at least in part, to the stimulation of hepatic collagenolysis, resulting in a resolution of hepatic fibrosis

-reversal of fibrosis? That could find a whole lot of uses

Ketotifen also inhibits TNF Alpha and can be purchased from a few research stores.

IIRC ketitifen is an anti-histamine and anti-histamines fuck the FED state in the mouth so that wold be a poor approach at realizing benefit torwards joint health.

considering Liorrh's and Marc's recent posts suggesting not to fuck with TNF -alpha I'm a little lost to why you think it would be a good plan to supress it. If your levels are too high then yes... but if not it's my understanding it shouldn't be fucked with. As I said I'm basing this off of what I thought we said in recent threads

there are 3-4 approved meds that block tnf-a (approved for RA).

side effects are death from infections, esp. latent ones. no info on body composition as those are in serious conditions that could care less about that

What we want to do, is affect a natural rhythm of inflammatory mechanisms. Increasingly, we are seeing that there is too much inflammatory reaction in the body. Whereas, what we are learning, is how these same mechanisms operate in the brain and how to regulate them through out the body. We are at an early stage of merely cataloguing effects, and many many people need TNF inhibitors. There's no point in telling me, of all people, that too much immune inhibition causes death - everyone knows that, in fact, we used this simple fact to predict, correctly, that the body uses immune reactions in a diurnal rhythm to maximise them and because day time inhibition, which we suspect is what happens, would lead to a need for rebound sleep to catch up on immune functions at night, and cell division of some classes of cell. This is exactly what we are now finding rebound sleep is for. What we wish to do is find a variety of agents and what they do and as we learn more about what goes wrong, we can put these combinations together, predict benefits, without waiting for pharmaceutical companies to blunder there way into a cure, which doesn't look imminent for most of the immune conditions.

Ultimately, we will learn how to modulate immune responses, optimise tissue repair, and cure many diseases, by controlling the way proginitor cells react and mature. Lowering TNF is a crude first base to that end in cases of persistent inflammatory condition. As I hunted for data, I came across this and posted it.

If you had too much TNF inhibition, the dose and treatment combination can be modulated. This looks as promising or more so than steroids and other commercial anti-inflammatories, which work in vaguely the same way or to similar end, and with plenty of side-effects. Perhaps, once a treatment has worked, the wounds can heal, and a longer lasting treatment can be effected - in traditional medicine, I'm sure others have noticed, treatments which are powerful immune modulators are often recommended to be cycled. That's another angle, but you've got to start with basic data. Its still too basic, but its a start.

Good post from ATB. I don't really have anything to add. Remember that heavy exercise elevates TNF-a and we need that inflammatory response to recover. I have psoriasis in which you have highly elevated cytokines, especially TNF-a. I have never used any conventional medications for my condition. It's hard to find a balance between my messed up immune system and training. I tell you, I can easily get my symptoms go away - I just have to stop training and take a handful of herbs and supplements. Adding training is the hard part, because it's VERY difficult to find the happy mean with my inflammatory response. I take my supplements and train -> no muscle growth and poor recovery and so on.