interested on what avant reps have to say in response to this...
posted by Dinoiii at leanbulk.com
Before I proceed, I will preface this by suggesting this is merely an opinion on a product I was asked about. There are no intentions to call-out and/or question Avant and/or the reps nor any expectations as a result. That said, if any of them feel the need to speak up in this thread, I am more than happy to listen to their reasoning.



First, Do you have their write-up?

I am uncertain why certain things were used actually.

For instance, the AMINOGEN...I just don't see rationale with it in this formula.

By prop blend rules, the NAC is highly underdosed for most well-trained bodybuilders.

I do NOT like CEE! I think studies have suggested it to MINIMALLY not hold superiority to monohydrate (depsite the "anti-bloat" offering that usually plagues ad-campaigns - here it should be no matter as they also stuck the CM in there anyway).

Calcium and magnesium could offset one another in this formula due to the salts that they chose, but really I don't have issues with the rest of the formula - it should likely be inconsequential.

Again - anyone want to aid my cause and stick up their write-up in this thread for me please (I apologize but I am press for time at the moment...these are all quick thoughts for now until I see more and perhaps rationale for their employment).


Thanks
D_
Continued...

Rapid-fire comments in response to the product write-up:

(1) Aminogen is simply NOT necessary for a normal human being. Sounds catchy and neat and I appreciate the citation of TM-holders, but the reality remains; most people digest proteins just fine. In the case of metabolic derrangements where individual aminos may be of supplemental benefit, there is likely some rationale for the potential incorporation of this, HOWEVER, you could just supplement with the individual aminos of concern as well.

I will cite an example. I am currently working with 9 cases of aminoacidurias (very rare to have that high incidence in office). Three of the cases are cystinuria which provides and autosomal recessive defect in the transport of what I collectively reference the "COLA" amino acids (Cysteine, Lysine, Ornithine, and Arginine). Read any old bodybuilding supplement ad and you'd probably say - them is some big players, no? Not really ... outside of an alkaline diuresis, they fare pretty well on supplementation and if they can process ok...trust me - you can as well!

(2) The NAC remains underdosed for what is being suggested. This is as I suspected and far too many approximate the acetaminophen research to translate into oral dosing parameters; it does NOT! This is probably the most misunderstood of all of the nutrients I could assume. After 5 years of direct research with it; I'd say this is unfortunate. Plus - the schnazzy ads suggesting free-radicals are always a bad thing is incorrect.

(3) In order for betaine (nature's cheap version of SAMe essentially, which SHOULD BE SUPPLEMENTED WITH PARTICULAR co-factor B-vitamins to actually work the way they suggest) is FAR UNDERDOSED.

(4) Anyone see an issue with calcium, magnesium, and zinc being supplemented at once?

(5) Fortunately they did add the CM to compensate for the CEE, however - if you were trying to avoid the bloat, et al...would you really have rationale to buy into a formula that still incorporates CM?
Again, this is NOT intended as derogatory, per se...but truthful approximations on the formula I was asked about. This does NOT appear well-thought out in my estimation. I would prefer the above ammendments as a start to make the formula into something. What that something is is probably anyone's guess.

D_

YOU WANT A WAR OWEN?

I've seen it, I'm not sure he took 3x dosing in to consideration. If you want a polite rebuttal hold on for a few.

Yeah, I relayed this to the rest of the guys earlier. I believe Tony is waiting on his response to be approved by LB admin.

at least the dialogue has been stimulated

According to "Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease, 10th" (reading through last night), over the long term the old "no calcium with magnesium" mantra doesn't matter.

Super high doses of zinc (increasing from like 19 to 120 mg ED) did severely cut magnesium levels...

I thought that calcium and magnesium combined would enhance absorption of each, but calcium interfered with zinc absoprtion?

While we are talking about synthesize Colin mentioned this and I was wondering if anyone can talk about it: "You can use NAC (500mg on an empty stomach 2xED) to eliminate the hindered fat oxidation from the creatine in SyntheSIZE."

See this thread:

http://www.avantlabs.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20931

I'm waiting on my response to be approved over there. It's taking a lot longer than it should, so I've emailed the admin and hopefully that'll speed things up.

I'm gonna jump on this thread tomorrow or the next day.

T, posts have to be approved by mods on that board??

I don't think they normally do. I have no idea why they had to approve his first.

Is this dude a bigwig there???

Is he the resident guru??

Is he more than that -- is he staff/admin/moderator...???

I've read the thread, and his arguments seemed quite myopic/simple-minded to me, but I need to know how hard I can go at him (i.e. do I give him the Macro/Big Cat treatment, or do I have to be "kinder, gentler Par..."?

He's posted here on and off. The last time was in Feb of last year.

Yes.

Yes, he even has his own forum there.

Not sure.

Hmm, I'll leave that up to you and Tony to decide. I'm not all that familiar with him or the way things go down around there.

Postal, baby!!

As Ryan said, yes and yes. I don't think he's an admin, but I'm sure he probably moderates his section there (which is where that thread is located).

He has a lot of clout there and at bb.com. At one point, I think he MAY have had some kind of association with MAN or SAN, if memory serves, but I'm not entirely sure on that.

As far as the post approving thing goes, I was told by the admin when I emailed him that it was a software glitch caused by the new version of their forum software, so I don't think you'll have to worry about getting stuff approved. If so, though, let me know.

And, go at him. Full force. We're a sponsor there now.

Well, maybe not full-blown rape like you'd do to someone here, but ya' know, pretty hard.

The points addressed demonstrate a lack of understanding of the product/ingredients on multiple levels.

Yeah, I don't know that board -- and, only after Kimbo mentioned that he had posted here a bit, do I vaguely recall that username at all.

But, the way he's talking, it seems like I'm going to have to post my entire LeptiGen article and a bunch more stuff i was talking about in 2003, before I ever get into direct SyntheSIZE research and reasoning.

Ugh.

Waiting anxiously for this interaction...

Same here. I love it when smart people get in a 'fight'.

Being a 3x serving consumer, I'd like to hear more...

I'm so bored of it.

Especially, with a product that is, science-wise, a twice simplified version of original LeptiGen from fucking 2003!!

Yeah, as one of the 'smart dudes', I'm sure it gets old.

But, as a lowly bottom-hugger, I love the discourse... even if I can't pronounce every word said, I usually learn a thing or two.

Need a pep talk?

Make him understand.

Make him understand the science.

And how frustrated you are with having to explain it.

The only reason I signed up over there is to see this debate. My popcorn is getting cold.

Par, can you at least post your arguments for synthesize over here, until they get posted over at LB.com, at the very least i can PM or email them to dinoiii...

plus, personally, i just want to see them\

thanks

Me too.

I'm curious to see how dinoii's arguments work out -- he seems pretty smart, too.

Owen,it has been firmly established by both the The Leptigen articles & SyntheSIZE write up as well as anecdotal feedback that SyntheSIZE is quite effective as to how it has been projected to perform.Not to mention the slew of threads on leptin,NAC and so forth on this board which have tied all the relevant material together.

One cannot blame Par for not being overanxious to rehash material,in order to serve as a basic primer,that he has thoroughly discussed for several years on end but I am sure that he will get to it.In the meantime,some patience would be nice

Patience? WTF is that?

I'm just super busy right now -- I'll register there and post sometime this week when I get the chance.

cough... M&M wiki.... cough...

I, too, believe little need to come over to LB and cause some sort of issue - that is highly unnecessary.

I believe that if you wanted to upset me - calling me the "guru" is about what would be required. That term is often self-professed and holds little meaning, inclusive of those vying for guru-status on any board for that matter.

I will save you the trouble of reposting or rehashing write-ups for products. This does NOT seem pertinent to me and I am NOT interested in reading about Leptigen. You could do something relatively novel and keep the to the topic at hand. I addressed a series of concerns and if there is rationale to believe those concerns are misguided you could address them one-by-one.

For those that suggest I don't understand this industry, 16 years in it would likely protest that account. I am not the one selling a product and was merely asked an opinion of an ingredient panel as I wasn't even sure what was in the product. I did what I felt was fair and asked to see the write-up...as such...what was presented to me seemed to support the comments that I offered.

Developing thicker skin is probably what this scenario would warrant and rather than subject yourself to the antagonistic attempts by my seeing this SAME item rehashed over and over again in reposted fashion...perhaps you can merely quench my thirst by replying, in turn, to 5 items I draw attention to (no need for the prototypical response or forum prototype nonsense). There's no reason to suggest I haven't supported your company as Avant Labs (unfortunate to see SesaLean go) and I assure you, this is not your prototypical "attack" it has been pegged for.

D_

No, he didn't and as such this was addressed in the thread in question.




That is highly unusual. No approval by LB admin needed.




Dunno.




"Guru" is far too often self-professed so I don't want that tag particularly.




Staff = sort of, Admin = no, Mod = yes of my subforum ONLY, but not to worry I will leave all comments up (in other words your retort will remain in plain sight) and if you have data to support the contrary I am all ears and will listen accordingly. Mind you, NOT the write-up suggested in that thread, but data that can be used for what you are implying.




Wow - that's a big statement. Unfortunate you feel that way, for sure...but it is a big statement.




Don't really post at bb.com much, but do at discountanabolics - I'd probably be suggested as "having a lot of clout there" but these are minor details I would think. The points in question have yet to be addressed oddly.

Instead a lot of prototypical attacks on me have ensued by the Avant faithful. Whatever, this doesn't change my opinion.

I do currently work with MAN and a number of other companies on formulations, but that is neither here nor there. AGAIN - what does it take to stay on topic in this industry...you can do your best to make me look bad (the forum prototype) or address my concerns.

"Full-force" eh? If it stays on topic, by all means. I again would be the first to admit that I may have overlooked something.


D_

Doc,

Nobody is attacking you here. At least, not personally. Your arguments, well, that may be another story.

But please understand that Caleb has been fighting these battles for a long time and he's not terribly anxious to get involved in another one that involves material he covered many times, many years ago.

And no, I'm not talking about product write ups.

So you'll have to forgive us if he doesn't jump right in with both feet to explain for the nth time why this product (and its predecessors) was formulated the way it was.

I didn't take it as an attack or get all fired up -- or I would have replied that day.

I'm just really busy right now, and it is all stuff I've talked endlessly about and tried to simplify multiple times. Just kind of a hot button and I was venting a bit on my board. You didn't do anything wrong.

bump for par's explanation

I'll give a quick response here, as Par is a busy bird.

Aminogen is not necessary, but it improves protein utilization, especially those with a high protein diet. There is a study showing it boosts nitrogen retention by something like 30%. It breaks down protein into short chain peptides and free form AA's. Chronic high calorie/high protein diets can diminsh digestive enzyme production, I've seen clients gain muscle fairly quickly just by adding in a good digestive enzyme before meals. Skinny fat people and or hardgainer types are notorious for have dig. enzyme deficencies...aminogen will certainly help in this regard.

NAC at 900mg/day is plenty effective. Not sure why this is being questioned. The one study that showed negative effects has been repeatedly refuted, especially when coinciding with a high vitamin C intake. I didn't see anywhere on the label where it mentioned that free radicals are always bad.

On that note, I prefer taking my SyntheSize away from my workout due to the potential negative effect of NAC on protein synthesis during acute recovery phases, based on some recent research. I avoid taking it with the meal right before and the meal right after the workout. However, the first time I used it, I took it around workouts and was still able to put on 8lbs at a quick pace. This is just personal preference, haven't discussed this with the AR crew.

CEE and CM are both used for differing rates of absorption, as well as the simple fact that some people respond better to one or the other. The negative CEE study was poor in design, and failed to account for important factors. This has been refuted as well.

The mineral salts are used as buffers to aid in meal optimization.

Betaine HCl...the active component is the HCl, used again for meal optimization by manipulating pH. This has nothing to do with TMG, or SAM-e.

NAC is also useful in mitigating the inhibition of fat loss from creatine and 900mg per day should be enough to counteract localized pH drop with creatine use.Creatine sans NAC will cause a shift in preferred energy source and short circuit burning off fatty acids.