Apparently cissus has progestins,this is not good news for those prone to gyno.



Taken from the linked thread:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/usp-labs/52...issus-gyno.html
Originally Posted by USPLabs
"Please link me to the study, However, I have the full-text study and they didn't have access to NMR nor
did they indicate any specific molecule. They used IR spectra and only gave clues to the molecule's identity.
The study was Posted by PA over at Avant. PA claimed it contained androstendione.

We been studing Cissus for over a year and if it where a progestrin it would not be a hidden fact."




Can anyone get the full study?




Bibliographic Information

Active constituents (oxo steroids) of Cissus quadrangularis. Sen, S. P. Dept. Pharmacol., Banaras Hindu Univ., Indian Journal of Pharmacy (1964), 26(9), 247-8. CODEN: IJPAAO ISSN: 0019-5472. Journal written in English. CAN 62:22726 AN 1965:22726 CAPLUS

Abstract

An ether ext. of C. quadrangularis, purified by column chromatography, yielded an oxo steroid, m. 134-6°; Ac deriv. m. 124°. The uv and ir spectra suggested an a,b-unsatd. ketone.

Indexing -- Section 42 (Steroids)

Steroids
(keto, from Cissus quadrangularis)

Spectra, infrared
Spectra, visible and ultraviolet
(of keto steroid from Cissus quadrangularis)

Cissus quadrangularis
(oxo steroid from)

Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-
(nuclear magnetic resonance of)

57-83-0, Progesterone
63-05-8, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione
152-58-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
600-48-6, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-
640-87-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-, 21-acetate
803-08-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-
1235-92-3, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-
1758-12-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1758-13-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 21-acetate
1758-14-1, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1974-64-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-, diacetate(nuclear magnetic resonance of)

1758-15-2, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-, 7-acetate
10455-29-5, Androst-4-ene-3,15,17-trione
94963-21-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,15,20-trione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
(prepn. of)

Concerning news considering the prevalence of Cissus in USP products.

I don't consider it concerning. People have been using the hell out of cissus and how many complaints of gyno have you seen? I don't understand why there can be thousands of people using a product without a problem and then a study comes out with something potentially negative that would have been quite apparent without the study and people freak?

Anecdotally, I am quite sensitive to fluctuations in sex hormones, and I have never had a problem with cissus and I use quite a bit of it.

Again, binding affinity and differential ligand activation will need to be looked at before "good" and "bad" can even be suggested responsibly.

Look at the threads on gender responses to phytoestrogens we have going.

dashforce, got links?

Here's one, sorry short on time.

of course, expect accounts of cissus induced gyno to skyrocket across bro-boards everywhere

Thanks for the link,Dash.

I think this is a cause of concern for those who have gyno or prone to it (have had it in the past) simply based on the fact progestins have been reported to induce gyno.

Of course I can't unequivically state that gyno will result from cissus,this is clearly not the case as feedback indicates otherwise.

Although I hate to QUOTE someone else, this is an accurate summary of how Progestins are GOOD for joints:

"T helper 1 (TH1) cells secrete pro-inflammatory cytokines as well as promoting cell-mediated immune responses, whereas TH2 cells trigger antibody production (2). Sex hormones (such as progesterone) that promote the development of a TH2 response also happen to antagonize the emergence of TH1 cells. Hence, when progesterone levels are (or the PgR, progesterone receptor) stimulated, you'll have more anti-inflammatory cytokines floating around and less pro-inflammatory cytokines. Aspirin, Tylenol, and all of the over the counter anti-inflammatories are also useful as painkillers. Anti-inflammatory effects are often highly correlated with pain killing activity. What happens when women with arthritis get pregnant? They typically see a reduction in joint pain. This, I contend, is due to the progesterone and estrogen increases seen during pregnancy, and the anti-inflammatory effects they generate.

Progesterone, like testosterone, both stimulates humoral immunity (the TH2) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). Ergo, progesterone has anti-inflammatory action. Deca is a progestin, meaning it stimulates the progesterone receptor. And that’s why it alleviates joint pains. Remember that old idea that deca promotes "water-retention" in the joints, and that’s why it helps your joints feel better? Bullshit. You just read the real reason deca helps joints. Deca actually works on two fronts as an androgen—which have well-documented effects on corticosteroids—and as a progestin to reduce inflammation.
Let’s move on....

Hold the phone --



I bet there are some significant differences in addition to the similarities.

Anyone have anything definitive as to wether or not the contents of cissus may aggravate existing gyno?

I blew a signifigant wad on 4 bottles of super cissus rx bulk jugs recently at NP and am debating wether or not I should even include cissus in my gyno reduction cycle,which is now underway.

Any scrap of a remote concept of cissus effectiuvely shafting my gyno reduction cycle efforts puts me at unease but I do like the potential effect cissus has on joints.

I use cissus all the time for a great nights sleep, no change in gyno.

Um shoot it my way. I tested super dosing of Cissus and Symmetry, which I actually liked quite a lot, and it never made any old gyno flair up.

I've used cissus in the past and had no changes in gyno.

I never had any gyno and have used cissus many times.
I have not read of any anecdotal reports of gyno from cissus either.

UPSLabs has stated that the above abstract was fabricated and no such study exists.

Not sure if I believe this and at any rate,their approach to customer service is sickening.See the posts below from the linked thread,in which I was summarily berated for an inquiry regarding their cissus product.

I thought it interesting that Dana Houser (Dinoii) ripped USPLabs's arguement to pieces,respectfully so,with not much of any substantial retort from USP.

More reason NOT to support USPLabs,as if the shady naming of their actives wasn't enough....

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/usp-labs/52...issus-gyno.html

Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
It's odd, there is an imposition for a burden of proof here, where the charges lack a leg to stand on.

Colin,

You first provide me with something beyond that single abstract to imply Cissus contains androgens and/or other gyno-inducing constituents, and I will do the legwork to dig up that whole study. If one abstract, unfounded, then legitimately refuted, is enough to sway your use, you should stay away from supplements in general.

I have read probably over 100 studies on Leucine alone and I am still undecided.



Originally Posted by USPLabs
Please link me to the study, However, I have the full-text study and they didn't have access to NMR nor
did they indicate any specific molecule. They used IR spectra and only gave clues to the molecule's identity.
The study was Posted by PA over at Avant. PA claimed it contained androstendione.

We been studing Cissus for over a year and if it where a progestrin it would not be a hidden fact.

Even if it did contain it, what is the concentration? Oral progesterone is metabolized extensively by the liver and would require significant amounts to ever be pharmacologically significant. I bet a number of plants that are eaten contain trace amounts of various hormones.