Primordial Performance
Feb 13 2008, 02:15 PM
CLA ethyl ester is here!Now you can take the proper ratio of CLA isomers, at an effective dose, at an affordable price!
CLA ethyl ester is a body recompositioning agent that can safely reduce body fat, while increasing lean muscle. Our CLA ethyl ester is
Conjugated Linoleic Acid attached to an
ethyl ester for increased palatability for oral dosing. Each bottle of CLA ethyl ester will last 30 days.
In a nut shell, CLA is the fat of champions, created to build us a better body, a better immune system, and better arterial health. CLA is a naturally occurring fatty acid, created by fermentative bacteria in the stomachs of various plant eating animals. It makes its way to our diet primarily from beef and dairy products. Since humans cannot produce CLA on their own, it must be taken through food. Unfortunately, most of today’s grain fed cattle, and conventional dairy has far less CLA than it did in the 60’s, thus leaving us with a less-than-optimal amount of CLA (about 300mg/day for the average dairy consuming American).
Unless you have access to an endless supply of natural grass-fed beef and dairy, CLA supplementation should be a staple in your supplement regimen.
Dozens of human studies have confirmed CLA can significantly
reduce body fat, while
increasing lean muscle at the same time.
CLA puts the triple attack on fatty tissue by killing fat cells, preventing new fat cells from being created, and preventing fat storage. At the same time, CLA helps increase protein retention for lean muscle growth. This means you can reduce flabby abdominal tissue, while simultaneously replacing it with hard dense muscle.
Read more...Our CLA stacks well with our other products --
Dermacrine,
Sustain Alpha,
Phyto-Testosterone,
DermaTherm, and
Tea-3.
Check out our
Maximum Lean Mass Stacking Guidelines.
Remember, you can save $10 with your M&M discount code. Just enter MVC10 into the promotional code fied during the final checkout page, or give us a call to place an order, and mention the discount - 1-800-568-2924 (Also, if you spend over $100 you get FREE 2-3 day shipping if your in the US)
Thank you.
-Pp
liorrh
Feb 13 2008, 02:26 PM
is it tested for isomers?
Primordial Performance
Feb 13 2008, 03:25 PM
QUOTE(liorrh @ Feb 13 2008, 11:26 AM) [snapback]457216[/snapback]
is it tested for isomers?
Yes, and its very similar to the tonalin brand CLA –
41% cis-9, trans-11
40% trans-10, cis-12
6% Palmitic acid
2.3% Stearic acid
10% Oleic acid
-Pp
babyblu
Feb 13 2008, 03:28 PM
You never cease to be an innovator Eric!!
bb
Kimbo
Feb 13 2008, 03:41 PM
Very cool guys.
Is the EE added simply for palatability's sake, or does it do anything else (e.g. increas absorption)? Can you put this stuff in food, mix it into a protein shake, etc? Can it be heated?
Primordial Performance
Feb 13 2008, 04:40 PM
QUOTE(Kimbo @ Feb 13 2008, 12:41 PM) [snapback]457255[/snapback]
Very cool guys.
Is the EE added simply for palatability's sake, or does it do anything else (e.g. increas absorption)? Can you put this stuff in food, mix it into a protein shake, etc? Can it be heated?
The ethyl ester is mainly for palatability’s sake. It does go well with protein shakes, but I actually enjoy taking it straight from the bottle. Im sure it would be fine in foods too (salad dressing?)… but I wouldn’t heat it.
-Pp
x_muscle
Feb 13 2008, 10:48 PM
So u attach an ethyl ester to a fatty acid for palatability’s sake, and you assume that the new molecule would be the same as the parent molecule.
Adding or subtracting one carbon can alter the compound to something else, well that what i was tught in basic chem, so realy why didu stick the ethyl ester there........
But anywys there is a prescription ethyl ester EPA/DHA sold in the pharmacies , so what do i know
Colin
Feb 13 2008, 10:55 PM
QUOTE(x_muscle @ Feb 13 2008, 07:48 PM) [snapback]457423[/snapback]
But anywys there is a prescription ethyl ester EPA/DHA sold in the pharmacies , so what do i know
You may be onto something as ethyl ester epa/dha has been shown to be much less effective than regular fish oil.
Jakeshorts
Feb 14 2008, 07:15 AM
I believe ethyl ester EPA/DHA was fround to have bioavailability issues wasn't it? I could be talking out my ass... but for some reason I was to say I remember someone finding this and posting it in a fish oil thread...
Heavy_Lifter85
Feb 14 2008, 09:18 AM
The results are mixed, although fish beats out both ethyl esters and triglycerides.
Lawson LD, Hughes BG. Absorption of eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid from fish oil triacylglycerols or fish oil ethyl esters co-ingested with a high-fat meal. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 1988 Oct 31;156(2):960-3.
Lawson LD, Hughes BG. Human absorption of fish oil fatty acids as triacylglycerols, free acids, or ethyl esters. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 1988 Apr 15;152(1):328-35.
Beckermann B, Beneke M, Seitz I. [Comparative bioavailability of eicosapentaenoic acid and docasahexaenoic acid from triglycerides, free fatty acids and ethyl esters in volunteers] Arzneimittelforschung. 1990 Jun;40(6):700-4. German.
Visioli F, Rise P, Barassi MC, Marangoni F, Galli C. Dietary intake of fish vs. formulations leads to higher plasma concentrations of n-3 fatty acids. Lipids. 2003 Apr;38(4):415-8.
Krokan HE, Bjerve KS, Mork E. The enteral bioavailability of eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid is as good from ethyl esters as from glyceryl esters in spite of lower hydrolytic rates by pancreatic lipase in vitro. Biochim Biophys Acta. 1993 May 20;1168(1):59-67.
Nordoy A, Barstad L, Connor WE, Hatcher L. Absorption of the n-3 eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids as ethyl esters and triglycerides by humans. Am J Clin Nutr. 1991 May;53(5):1185-90.
el Boustani S, Colette C, Monnier L, Descomps B, Crastes de Paulet A, Mendy F. Enteral absorption in man of eicosapentaenoic acid in different chemical forms. Lipids. 1987 Oct;22(10):711-4.
Jakeshorts
Feb 14 2008, 10:29 AM
actually posting up directly relevant studies would help us determine how effective the study is WRT our debate... Although, I like where your head's at.
Here's a good one I find and is exactly what's being discussed...
1: Arzneimittelforschung. 1990 Jun;40(6):700-4.Links
[Comparative bioavailability of eicosapentaenoic acid and docasahexaenoic acid from triglycerides, free fatty acids and ethyl esters in volunteers][Article in German]
Beckermann B, Beneke M, Seitz I.
Bereich Forschung und Entwicklung der Troponwerke GmbH & Co. KG, Köln.
Comparative Bioavailability of Eicosapentaenoic Acid and Docosahexaenoic Acid from Triglycerides, Free Fatty Acids and Ethyl Esters in Volunteers. The bioavailability of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) from triglycerides, free fatty acids and ethyl esters was investigated in 8 female volunteers in a randomized triple cross-over trial with baseline control. EPA/DHA was administered in capsules in form of triglycerides (1.68/0.72 g), free fatty acids (1.35/1.065 g) and ethyl esters (1.86/1.27 g). The resulting EPA/DHA plasma levels were determined and evaluated. The mean relative bioavailability of EPA/DHA compared to triglycerides was 186/136% from free fatty acids and 40/48% from ethyl esters. Maximal plasma levels were about 50% higher with free fatty acids and about 50% lower with ethyl esters as compared to triglycerides. The tolerability of the free fatty acids was much worse than that of triglycerides and ethyl esters. The main side effect was eructation.
PMID: 2144420 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
free fatty acids are coming in dead last with shitty bioavailability as well as low tolerance levels. Ethyl Esters come in second and triglycerides take the cake which is what we found previously.
Now, knowing that we have a product with EE here it doesn't mean it's bad... just less than optimal and probably necessary because it's in liquid form and not gel caps to prevent oxidation (I'm assuming here). This is certainly acceptable and not foolish for obvious reasons if I'm right about the oxidation. The question then is what's the concentration of EE?
1: Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2006 Jul;75(1):19-24. Epub 2006 Jun 27. Links
The bioavailability and pharmacodynamics of different concentrations of omega-3 acid ethyl esters.Bryhn M, Hansteen H, Schanche T, Aakre SE.
Pronova Biocare, R&D, Vollsveien 6, N-1327 Lysaker, Norway. morten.bryhn@pronova.com
Omega-3 fatty acids have a long history of use as dietary supplements and more recently for therapeutic applications as prescription pharmaceuticals. Achieving a high concentration is critical for developing convenient, practical therapeutic formulations. The objective of the study was to explore the uptake and effects of different concentrations of omega-3 acid ethyl esters. Three different omega-3 concentrations were investigated in a clinical study with 101 subjects. All participants were dosed for 14 days with 5.1g per day of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) ethyl esters provided in three concentrations: 62.5%, 80% and 85% of total fatty acids. Key endpoints of the study were serum phospholipids and standard fasting lipid panels at day 14. Although administered the same quantity of omega-3 fatty acids, the patients taking the more concentrated formulations had higher levels of EPA/DHA in serum phospholipids and greater reductions in serum triglyceride and VLDL cholesterol levels. Total and non-HDL cholesterol were significantly reduced from baseline with all three formulations. In conclusion the concentration of omega-3 fatty acids of the formulations studied had independent effects on the uptake and effect outcomes during short-term administration. Very high concentrations of omega-3 acid ethyl esters (80%) appear to have higher uptake and are more potent for reducing triglycerides (TGs) and VLDL-cholesterol than formulations with lower concentrations.
PMID: 16806871 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
I'm sure we're all less than suprised that a higher concentration resulted in high plasma levels...
Some of merit here, and I know it's been said before is consistant dosing over a sustained period of time is required to reach optimal serum levels of EPA/DHA.
Which leads us to actual CLA:
1: Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006 Jan 20;3:8. Links
Absorption and metabolism of conjugated alpha-linolenic acid given as free fatty acids or triacylglycerols in rats.Plourde M, Sergiel JP, Chardigny JM, Grégoire S, Angers P, Sébédio JL.
UMR INRA-ENESAD Flavic, 21065 Dijon, France. melanie.plourde.1@ulaval.ca
BACKGROUND: Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is a group of polyunsaturated fatty acids which have been extensively studied in the past two decades. However, conjugated octadecatrienoic acid such as cis-9,trans-11,cis-15 and cis-9,trans-13,cis-15, recently identified, have not been extensively investigated. This work presents bioavailability and tissue incorporation of a mixture of conjugated octadecatrienoic (CLnA) acids ingested as free fatty acids (FFA) and triacylglycerols (TAG). RESULTS: Male Wistar rats were fed rumenic acid (RA: cis-9,trans-11 18:2) and a CLnA mixture (cis-9,trans-11,cis-15 18:3 and cis-9,trans-13,cis-15 18:3) as FFA and TAG for 8 days. RA and CLnA were both totally absorbed when given as FFA as well as TAG. Both isomers of CLnA as FFA or TAG were incorporated into neutral lipids. Metabolites up to 22:6 conjugated isomers were present in liver and plasma phospholipids of rats fed the CLnA diets. CONCLUSION: Finally, CLnA are as well absorbed as RA in vivo and their incorporation into tissues and bioconversion are similar when ingested as FFA or as TAG.
PMID: 16426454 [PubMed]
PMCID: PMC1386673
This suggests to me that it's source is irrelevant and that we would see similar results with TAG vs. FFA vs. EE.
: Lipids. 2006 Nov;41(11):993-1001.Links
Effects of cis-9,trans-11 and trans-10,cis-12 CLA isomers on liver and adipose tissue fatty acid profile in hamsters.Zabala A, Portillo MP, Macarulla MT, Rodríguez VM, Fernández-Quintela A.
Department of Nutrition and Food Science, University of País Vasco, Paseo de la Universidad 7, 01006 Vitoria, Spain.
The aim of the present study was to investigate the effect of cis-9,trans-11 and trans-10,cis-12 CLA on FA composition of TAG in epididymal adipose tissue and liver, and of hepatic phospholipids PL. Twenty-four Syrian Golden hamsters were randomly divided into three groups of eight animals each and fed semipurified atherogenic diets supplemented with either 0.5 g/100 g diet of linoleic acid or cis-9,trans-11 or trans-12,cis-9 CLA for 6 wk. Total lipids were extracted, and TAG and PL were separated by TLC. FA profile in lipid species from liver and adipose tissue, as well as in feces, was determined by GC. Trans-10,cis-12 CLA feeding significantly reduced linoleic and linolenic acids in TAG from both tissues, leading to reduced total PUFA content. Moreover, in the epididymal adipose tissue docosenoic and arachidonic acids were significantly increased. In liver PL, although no changes in individual FA were observed, total saturated FA (SFA) were decreased. No changes in TAG and PL FA profiles were induced by the cis-9,trans-11 CLA. TAG and PL incorporated cis-9,trans-11 more readily than trans-10,cis-12 CLA. This difference was not due to differential intestinal absorption, as shown by the analysis of feces. We concluded that only trans-10,cis-12 CLA induces changes in FA composition. Whereas increased PUFA content was observed in either liver or adipose tissue TAG, decreased SFA were found in liver PL. Incorporation of cis-9,trans-11 CLA in TAG is greater than that of trans-10,cis-12 CLA, but this is not due to differences in intestinal absorption.
PMID: 17263299 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Either way it doesn't look like bioavailability is going to be an issue with either isomer. They both have good bioavailability with interesting benefits.
and I just found support for my above hypothesis that it's form of delivery doesn't mean anything.
1: J Nutr. 2006 Aug;136(8):2201-6. Links
The form of dietary conjugated linoleic acid does not influence plasma and liver triacylglycerol concentrations in Syrian golden hamsters.Porsgaard T, Xu X, Mu H.
Biochemistry and Nutrition Group, BioCentrum-DTU, Technical University of Denmark, 2800 Lyngby, Denmark.
Several studies have shown that conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) supplementation can improve the plasma lipid profile and thereby probably decrease the risk for development of atherosclerosis. The aim of the present study was to compare the effects on plasma and organ lipids of different dietary forms of CLA: triacylglycerol (TAG), diacylglycerol (DAG), monoacylglycerol (MAG), and fatty acid ethyl esters (FAEEs). DAG-, MAG-, and FAEE-CLA were produced by enzymatic interesterifications and all supplements were composed of a 1:1 mixture of the 2 major CLA isomers: cis-9, trans-11 and trans-10, cis-12. Male Syrian Golden hamsters were fed mildly atherogenic diets (10 g butter/100 g, 0.1 g cholesterol/100 g) supplemented with 0.5 g CLA/100 g or without CLA (control) for 8 wk. Liver weights were greater in the TAG- and FAEE-CLA groups than in the control group. In general, the form of CLA did not differentially affect plasma or liver cholesterol or plasma lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations, but only the TAG-CLA group had a higher final plasma TAG concentration than the control group. Both CLA isomers were incorporated into plasma, livers, and spleens. The results of the present study suggest that the form in which CLA is supplemented in the diet does not affect hamster plasma and liver TAG concentrations. The TAG-CLA form, a frequently used form of supplemental CLA, increases plasma TAG concentrations. If similar effects occur in humans, supplemental TAG-CLA cannot be considered to be beneficial given the relation between plasma TAG and the development of atherosclerosis.
PMID: 16857841 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Nice going Eric. I'm a fan.... A broke fan... but a fan.
Heavy_Lifter85
Feb 14 2008, 11:00 AM
QUOTE(Jakeshorts @ Feb 14 2008, 09:29 AM) [snapback]457508[/snapback]
Now, knowing that we have a product with EE here it doesn't mean it's bad... just less than optimal and probably necessary because it's in liquid form and not gel caps to prevent oxidation (I'm assuming here). This is certainly acceptable and not foolish for obvious reasons if I'm right about the oxidation. The question then is what's the concentration of EE?
An ethyl ester would not be expected to change susceptibility to oxidation.
Whomever produces this product for PP likely starts with a TAG, saponifies the esters with sodium ethoxide, and ends up with CLA-ethyl ester and glycerol. There must be some reason to go through the trouble of doing this, but resistence to oxidation isn't it.
Jakeshorts
Feb 14 2008, 11:04 AM
good to know. Thanks for responding to that question as chemistry is not my bag...
Primordial Performance
Feb 14 2008, 01:16 PM
Good research jake.
The ethyl ester in CLA was included to remove the pungent taste and reduce precipitation of the oil. Oxidation isn’t really a problem with CLA until you got above 50 C’. Any effect the EE has on bio-availably would be minor.
One benefit to taking the CLA orally as an oil, is that it will have a superior path to the lymphatic system through the buccal cavity and throat upon oral administration.
-Pp
eclypz
Feb 14 2008, 01:21 PM
damn shame it's not isomer specific. One isomer burns fat, the other does the opposite.
Primordial Performance
Feb 14 2008, 02:10 PM
QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 14 2008, 10:21 AM) [snapback]457585[/snapback]
damn shame it's not isomer specific. One isomer burns fat, the other does the opposite.
Single isomer CLA is bad news, which will lead to insulin resistance.
The 50/50 combo is the only CLA isomer ratio that has been shown to be both effective at fat loss, and void of any side effects. (please check the write up reffs)
-Pp
eclypz
Feb 15 2008, 11:36 AM
QUOTE(Primordial Performance @ Feb 14 2008, 11:10 AM) [snapback]457605[/snapback]
Single isomer CLA is bad news, which will lead to insulin resistance.
The 50/50 combo is the only CLA isomer ratio that has been shown to be both effective at fat loss, and void of any side effects. (please check the write up reffs)
-Pp
Would you mind pointing those out to me? I can't stand trying to look through that stuff so I humbly ask if you wouldn't mind copying and pasting.
I thought it would cause IR in fat but not muscle, and that was the whole point.
eclypz
Feb 15 2008, 11:42 AM
Was it Par that said basically the two isomers cancel each other out?
eclypz
Feb 15 2008, 12:15 PM
FWIW I bought 1000 softgels from 1fast400 about two years ago. I dosed 9 grams a day for three months. Didn't do anything for me really. I mean I wasn't doing much other than overdoing the CLA to see if it had some effect. Again though didn't really notice much but heartburn.
Primordial Performance
Feb 15 2008, 01:34 PM
QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 15 2008, 08:36 AM) [snapback]457959[/snapback]
Would you mind pointing those out to me? I can't stand trying to look through that stuff so I humbly ask if you wouldn't mind copying and pasting.
I thought it would cause IR in fat but not muscle, and that was the whole point.
There may be some antagonistic relationship with the two isomers in certain metabolic effects, but the isomers certainly don’t cancel eachother out when it comes to fat loss. There are over 12 clinical human studies that have shown the 50/50 isomer mix to be effective for improving body composition, while being side effect free.
As far as the single isomers causing problems, and the 50/50 isomer mix being safe and beneficial, here are the reffs - (note, the only time you will find side effects with CLA, is with single isomers)
Treatment with dietary trans10cis12 conjugated linoleic acid causes isomer-specific insulin resistance in obese men with the metabolic syndrome.
Riserus U, et al.
Diabetes Care 2002;25:1516 –21.
Effects of cis-9,trans-11 conjugated linoleic acid supplementation on insulin sensitivity, lipid peroxidation, and proinflammatory markers in obese men
Ulf Risérus, et al.
Am. J. Clinical Nutrition, Aug 2004; 80: 279 - 283.
Clinical trial results support a preference for using CLA preparations enriched with two isomers rather than four isomers in human studies.
JM Gaullier, et al.
Lipids, November 1, 2002; 37(11): 1019-25.
Perspective on the safety and effectiveness of conjugated linoleic acid.
Pariza MW. et al.
Am J Clin Nutr 2004;79(suppl):1132S–6S
Insulin resistance—associated cardiovascular disease: potential benefits of conjugated linoleic acid
Denise V Aminot-Gilchrist and Hope DI Anderson
Am. J. Clinical Nutrition, Jun 2004; 79: 1159S - 1163S.
Conjugated linoleic acid improves insulin sensitivity in young, sedentary humans.
V Eyjolfson, et al.
Med Sci Sports Exerc, May 1, 2004; 36(5): 814-20
ScottL
Feb 15 2008, 02:31 PM
QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 15 2008, 11:42 AM) [snapback]457964[/snapback]
Was it Par that said basically the two isomers cancel each other out?
There are threads in the last...few months on this including link's to the discussion with Par and Loki.
eclypz
Feb 16 2008, 05:57 PM
QUOTE(ScottL @ Feb 15 2008, 11:31 AM) [snapback]458121[/snapback]
There are threads in the last...few months on this including link's to the discussion with Par and Loki.
And it seems like everything I've read so far, once again, BECAUSE I REALLY WANT TO LIKE THIS NUTRIENT (seeing as how I have 800 gelcaps left) basically says it's great and the bees knees or is worthless at best harmful at worst.
The bottom line from the scientific community:
Jakeshorts
Feb 16 2008, 06:07 PM
If nothing else it's a huge advantage in some people's quest to kill gyno around here. See the proviron thread for a lot of research posted by your boy.
Colin
Feb 16 2008, 06:13 PM
QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 16 2008, 02:57 PM) [snapback]458668[/snapback]
And it seems like everything I've read so far, once again, BECAUSE I REALLY WANT TO LIKE THIS NUTRIENT (seeing as how I have 800 gelcaps left) basically says it's great and the bees knees or is worthless at best harmful at worst.
The bottom line from the scientific community:
I suggest using it at 20-30 grams per day.
As Jake said,it may help a bit with gyno (if stacked with other compounds,that is) and according to an old post by Sphlonged (David Tolson who wrote an article on CLA) it will work WRT fat loss...BUT...there will be drawbacks at a a high (effective) dosage protocol.Insulin,bla bla and so on.
Jakeshorts
Feb 16 2008, 07:05 PM
i think dosing with fish oil might help with the insulin sensativity issues. Just a thought.
Heavy_Lifter85
Feb 16 2008, 07:31 PM
QUOTE(Jakeshorts @ Feb 16 2008, 06:05 PM) [snapback]458681[/snapback]
i think dosing with fish oil might help with the insulin sensativity issues. Just a thought.
Leptin Sensitivity in Skeletal Muscle Is Modulated by Diet and Exercise.
Article
Exercise & Sport Sciences Reviews. 33(4):189-194, October 2005. Dyck, David J.
Abstract:
Leptin reduces intracellular lipid stores and improves insulin sensitivity. Thus, the development of leptin resistance in obesity may be an early event leading to elevated intramuscular lipids and insulin resistance. Recent data indicate that obesity-causing high-fat diets lead to leptin resistance in muscle, whereas supplementation with dietary fish oil and aerobic training can partially reverse this resistance.
©2005The Amercian College of Sports Medicine
Jakeshorts
Feb 16 2008, 07:36 PM
QUOTE(Heavy_Lifter85 @ Feb 16 2008, 07:31 PM) [snapback]458687[/snapback]
Leptin Sensitivity in Skeletal Muscle Is Modulated by Diet and Exercise.
Article
Exercise & Sport Sciences Reviews. 33(4):189-194, October 2005. Dyck, David J.
Abstract:
Leptin reduces intracellular lipid stores and improves insulin sensitivity. Thus, the development of leptin resistance in obesity may be an early event leading to elevated intramuscular lipids and insulin resistance. Recent data indicate that obesity-causing high-fat diets lead to leptin resistance in muscle, whereas supplementation with dietary fish oil and aerobic training can partially reverse this resistance.
©2005The Amercian College of Sports Medicine
who is suggesting a high fat diet?
is this insulin resistance in adipose tissue or skeletal muscle? I have a problem with not differentiating when discussing insulin resistance. I also think that investigatin WHY fish oil modulates leptin is going to be key. If PPAR agonists are modulating to do their magic then we're still ahead, just using a different pathway and also suggesting some crosstalk.
Heavy_Lifter85
Feb 16 2008, 09:05 PM
QUOTE(Jakeshorts @ Feb 16 2008, 06:36 PM) [snapback]458688[/snapback]
who is suggesting a high fat diet?
Oops, Colin is using the CLA, Dash is using the keto (i.e. high fast) diet, both are combating gyno. Got it straight now.
is this insulin resistance in adipose tissue or skeletal muscle?
It's clearly muscle; reread the abstract.
Jakeshorts
Feb 16 2008, 10:29 PM
QUOTE(Heavy_Lifter85 @ Feb 16 2008, 07:31 PM) [snapback]458687[/snapback]
Thus, the development of leptin resistance in obesity may be an early event leading to elevated intramuscular lipids and insulin resistance.
I see leptin resistance intra muscle. Not defined insulin resistance. Also in a high fat diet. Dash might be doing a keto diet, but he's trying to kill some mammary tissue, not adipose exclusively. I'm sure he has his reasons for doing so. He always does.
Recent data indicate that obesity-causing high-fat diets lead to leptin resistance in muscle, whereas supplementation with dietary fish oil and aerobic training can partially reverse this resistance.
and I see support for what I said above about fish oil. You may have been eluding to this when you posted this extract, but you didn't comment so I took it as a refute to my hypothesis. If I am wrong, my apologies are in order.
©2005The Amercian College of Sports Medicine
Heavy_Lifter85
Feb 16 2008, 10:46 PM
I'll come clean here ... I just put up the first abstract which supported your "i think dosing with fish oil might help with the insulin sensativity issues. Just a thought" post.
Since stumbling upon a full-text buffet early this evening, that's been the trend all night (see blarger's race and dopamine/athletic performance thread

). I figured it would take a week to read all the literature, so might as well alert others to it in the meantime
Primordial Performance
Feb 17 2008, 02:38 AM
QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 16 2008, 02:57 PM) [snapback]458668[/snapback]
And it seems like everything I've read so far, once again, BECAUSE I REALLY WANT TO LIKE THIS NUTRIENT (seeing as how I have 800 gelcaps left) basically says it's great and the bees knees or is worthless at best harmful at worst.
The bottom line from the scientific community:

?
dashforce
Feb 17 2008, 03:06 AM
QUOTE(Heavy_Lifter85 @ Feb 16 2008, 05:31 PM) [snapback]458687[/snapback]
Leptin Sensitivity in Skeletal Muscle Is Modulated by Diet and Exercise.
Article
Exercise & Sport Sciences Reviews. 33(4):189-194, October 2005. Dyck, David J.
Abstract:
Leptin reduces intracellular lipid stores and improves insulin sensitivity. Thus, the development of leptin resistance in obesity may be an early event leading to elevated intramuscular lipids and insulin resistance. Recent data indicate that obesity-causing high-fat diets lead to leptin resistance in muscle, whereas supplementation with dietary fish oil and aerobic training can partially reverse this resistance.
©2005The Amercian College of Sports Medicine
Ha -- to throw another wrench in the works, I've got a thread in the IC (still no replies, I don't think) showing fish oil to
induce leptin resistance by cutting transport across the BBB in rats.
Again, i emphasize that plasma leptin can mean fuck-all if it's not getting to its receptors. Always have to wonder if increases in plasma leptin are a result of leptin resistance (as in TII diabetes, where insulin is sky high but not doing jack shit).
QUOTE(Jakeshorts @ Feb 16 2008, 05:36 PM) [snapback]458688[/snapback]
WHY fish oil modulates leptin is going to be key.
Exactly. If it really is causing resistance at the BBB, then there's your answer -- and it's not pretty

I don't see where all the talk of my keto diet vs gyno is coming from -- the keto diet is because it's the easiest way for me to lose fat for an upcoming 5-day concert me and my girlfriend and ~50 of my buddies are going to rule (We have 8 camping lots and at least 6 trailers + tents... gonna be a blast). I want to be shredded for that.
BTW -- there's a study CORRELATING (no talk of causation here) high leptin with gyno in adolescent boys. Probably just due to being fat, but there's some other talk of leptin and gyno in my "gyno reduction thread."
And now a HUGE apology to PP -- I don't think any of my comments have dealt with CLA at all. Sorry for gumming up your thread.
ScottL
Feb 17 2008, 03:18 AM
QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 16 2008, 02:57 PM) *
And it seems like everything I've read so far, once again, BECAUSE I REALLY WANT TO LIKE THIS NUTRIENT (seeing as how I have 800 gelcaps left) basically says it's great and the bees knees or is worthless at best harmful at worst.
The bottom line from the scientific community:
QUOTE(Primordial Performance @ Feb 17 2008, 02:38 AM) [snapback]458723[/snapback]

?
Sorry, but he's correct. Read the threads. I've been researching this going back several years, and aside from animal, I've not run across anyone using the stuff (well and biotest).
I threw away a number of bottles of tonalin.
liorrh
Feb 17 2008, 06:49 AM
send them to me next time scott :-)
I agree they are not useful on their own but need to be combined with something.
ScottL
Feb 17 2008, 07:17 AM
QUOTE(liorrh @ Feb 17 2008, 06:49 AM) [snapback]458741[/snapback]
send them to me next time scott :-)
I agree they are not useful on their own but need to be combined with something.
The issue is not only that it doesn't do much, but it may be harmful. Pleaase see numerous abstracts posted in previous threads. I'm just not willing to touch or recommend the stuff, and this is a fairly common opinion.
liorrh
Feb 17 2008, 07:43 AM
that's good, but I'm an adult who has his own choice and researched it enough. so please, do send them over
ScottL
Feb 17 2008, 08:00 AM
I threw them away years ago. Sorry.
nightop
Feb 17 2008, 12:21 PM
We discussed this extensively in threads past. Don't waste your money.
Primordial Performance
Feb 17 2008, 02:13 PM
Anyone who believes CLA is damaging to your health is likely miss-understanding the science, or has been led astray by a couple cherry picked abstracts. (Yes, I’m calling out 90% of the very-well-informed people on this board)
All research on humans, using the 50/50 isomer mix, shows a loss in body fat, an increase in lean muscle, or both…. With no side effects. Any side effects that occurred in rats, with single isomers, or in vitro have been rebutted with more up-to-date in-vivo human research.
All the issues are covered in the product write up. If you have a scientific rebuttal to them, please post it.
Thank you.
-Pp
ScottL
Feb 17 2008, 02:53 PM
All the CLA info linked in this thread (plus some additional new abstracts):
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...c=30799&hl=
Primordial Performance
Feb 17 2008, 03:21 PM
QUOTE(ScottL @ Feb 17 2008, 11:53 AM) [snapback]458806[/snapback]
All the CLA info linked in this thread (plus some additional new abstracts):
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...c=30799&hl=Couldnt find anything to counter what Ive said, or the reffs Ive
provided...
-Pp
Primordial Performance
Mar 11 2008, 11:54 PM
TTT for the wolves.
-Pp
Heavy_Lifter85
Mar 23 2008, 06:39 PM
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Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2008 Feb;33(1):213-227.Links
The potential benefits of creatine and conjugated linoleic acid as adjuncts to resistance training in older adults.
Tarnopolsky MA, Safdar A.
Department of Pediatrics and Medicine, McMaster University, HSC-2H26, 1200 Main St. W., Hamilton, ON L8N 3Z5, Canada.
Human aging is associated with a significant reduction in muscle mass (sarcopenia) resulting in muscle weakness and functional limitations in the elderly. Sarcopenia has been associated with mitochondrial dysfunction and the accumulation of mtDNA deletions. Resistance training increases muscle strength and size and can increase mitochondrial capacity and decrease oxidative stress in older adults. Creatine monohydrate (CrM) and conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) have biological effects that could enhance some of the beneficial effects of resistance training in older adults (i.e., ↑ fat-free mass, ↓ total body fat). We have completed two resistance-training studies with CrM alone and CrM + CLA supplementation in older adults to evaluate the independent effects of exercise and dietary supplements, as well as their interactive effects. Our studies, and several others, have found that CrM enhanced the resistance exercise mediated gains in fat-free mass and strength. More recently, we found that the addition of CLA also lead to a significant reduction of body fat after six months of resistance training in older adults. Older adults have fewer wild-type mtDNA copies and higher amounts of mtDNA deletions as compared with younger adults in mature skeletal muscle; however, these deletions are not seen in the satellite cell-derived myoblast cultures. These findings, and the fact that mtDNA deletions are lower and wild-type mtDNA copy number is higher after resistance training in older adults, suggests that activation of satellite cells secondary to resistance exercise-induced muscle damage can dilute or “shift” the proportion of mtDNA genotype towards that of a younger adult. Recent evidence suggests that CrM supplementation in combination with strength training can enhance satellite cell activation and total myonuclei number per muscle fiber in young men. Future studies are required to determine whether the mitochondrial adaptations to resistance exercise in older adults are further enhanced with CrM supplementation and whether this is due to increased recruitment of satellite cells. It will also be important to determine whether these changes are maintained over a longer time period.
Heavy_Lifter85
Mar 23 2008, 06:40 PM
Obesity (Silver Spring). 2008 Mar 6 [Epub ahead of print]
Related Articles
Click here to read
Effect of a Conjugated Linoleic Acid and omega-3 Fatty Acid Mixture on Body Composition and Adiponectin.
Sneddon AA, Tsofliou F, Fyfe CL, Matheson I, Jackson DM, Horgan G, Winzell MS, Wahle KW, Ahren B, Williams LM.
1Vascular Health Division, Rowett Research Institute, Aberdeen, UK.
This study aimed to determine the effect of supplementation with conjugated linoleic acids (CLAs) plus n-3 long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids (n-3 LC-PUFAs) on body composition, adiposity, and hormone levels in young and older, lean and obese men. Young (31.4 +/- 3.9 years) lean (BMI, 23.6 +/- 1.5 kg/m(2); n = 13) and obese (BMI, 32.4 +/- 1.9 kg/m(2); n = 12) and older (56.5 +/- 4.6 years) lean (BMI, 23.6 +/- 1.5 kg/m(2); n = 20) and obese (BMI, 32.0 +/- 1.6 kg/m(2); n = 14) men participated in a double-blind placebo-controlled, randomized crossover study. Subjects received either 6 g/day control fat or 3 g/day CLA (50:50 cis-9, trans-11:trans-10, cis-12) and 3 g/day n-3 LC-PUFA for 12 weeks with a 12-week wash-out period between crossovers. Body composition was assessed by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry. Fasting adiponectin, leptin, glucose, and insulin concentrations were measured and insulin resistance estimated by homeostasis model assessment for insulin resistance (HOMA-IR). In the younger obese subjects, CLA plus n-3 LC-PUFA supplementation compared with control fat did not result in increased abdominal fat and raised both fat-free mass (2.4%) and adiponectin levels (12%). CLA plus n-3 LC-PUFA showed no significant effects on HOMA-IR in any group but did increase fasting glucose in older obese subjects. In summary, supplementation with CLA plus n-3 LC-PUFA prevents increased abdominal fat mass and raises fat-free mass and adiponectin levels in younger obese individuals without deleteriously affecting insulin sensitivity, whereas these parameters in young and older lean and older obese individuals were unaffected, apart from increased fasting glucose in older obese men.
Heavy_Lifter85
Mar 23 2008, 06:57 PM
J Nutr. 2008 Mar;138(3):509-14.Click here to read Links
A diet rich in conjugated linoleic acid and butter increases lipid peroxidation but does not affect atherosclerotic, inflammatory, or diabetic risk markers in healthy young men.
Raff M, Tholstrup T, Basu S, Nonboe P, Sřrensen MT, Straarup EM.
Department of Human Nutrition, Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark. mrf@life.ku.dk
Intake of conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) has been demonstrated to beneficially affect risk markers of atherosclerosis and diabetes in rats. CLA is naturally found in milk fat, especially from cows fed a diet high in oleic acid, and increased CLA intake can occur concomitantly with increased milk fat intake. Our objective was to investigate the effect of CLA as part of a diet rich in butter as a source of milk fat on risk markers of atherosclerosis, inflammation, diabetes type II, and lipid peroxidation. A total of 38 healthy young men were given a diet with 115 g/d of CLA-rich fat (5.5 g/d CLA oil, a mixture of 39.4% cis9, trans11 and 38.5% trans10, cis12) or of control fat with a low content of CLA in a 5-wk double-blind, randomized, parallel intervention study. We collected blood and urine before and after the intervention. The fatty acid composition of plasma triacylglycerol, cholesterol esters, and phospholipids reflected that of the intervention diets. The CLA diet resulted in increased lipid peroxidation measured as an 83% higher 8-iso-prostaglandin F2alpha concentration compared with the control, P < 0.0001. We observed no other significant differences in the effect of the interventions diets. In conclusion, when given as part of a diet rich in butter, a mixture of CLA isomers increased lipid peroxidation but did not affect risk markers of cardiovascular disease, inflammation, or fasting insulin and glucose concentrations.
ScottL
Mar 24 2008, 06:43 AM
QUOTE(Heavy_Lifter85 @ Mar 23 2008, 07:40 PM) [snapback]467688[/snapback]
Obesity (Silver Spring). 2008 Mar 6 [Epub ahead of print]
Related Articles
Click here to read
Effect of a Conjugated Linoleic Acid and omega-3 Fatty Acid Mixture on Body Composition and Adiponectin.
Sneddon AA, Tsofliou F, Fyfe CL, Matheson I, Jackson DM, Horgan G, Winzell MS, Wahle KW, Ahren B, Williams LM.
1Vascular Health Division, Rowett Research Institute, Aberdeen, UK.
CLA plus n-3 LC-PUFA showed no significant effects on HOMA-IR in any group but ***did increase fasting glucose*** in older obese subjects.
***did increase fasting glucose in older obese subjects***
If it does this in older people it may be negatively effecting insulin sensitivity in anyone who takes it, just that younger people can compensate before their glucose becomes elevated. This is one reason why many people will not touch the stuff.
johnyq
Mar 24 2008, 03:10 PM
holy crap, I recently had a fasting blood test and my glucose was very high, 90 (forget the units, the range was around 60-100). I was on the anabolic diet for about 2 months prior to the test, so I expected my insulin sensitivity would have increased....I was shocked when I saw my glucose values had gone up.
Well I started taking the bulk CLA from NP about a month and a half ago. Really makes me wonder. I think I'll stop taking it.
This is of course anectdotal, and its not even PP's CLA product, so I'm not trying to scare anyone. I simply had not seen these studies before now.
Jakeshorts
Mar 24 2008, 03:15 PM
uninformed question of the day - does the correlation between higher fasting glucose really mean the causation is CLA or insulin resistance?
Primordial Performance
Mar 24 2008, 04:06 PM
QUOTE(Jakeshorts @ Mar 24 2008, 01:15 PM) [snapback]467836[/snapback]
uninformed question of the day - does the correlation between higher fasting glucose really mean the causation is CLA or insulin resistance?
This topic has been reviewed in several major studies, and I addressed this issue in the product write up. The whole scare with CLA and insulin sensitivity got started with massive doses given to rats, and then when they tested single isomers in humans.
However, all the studies that have been done in humans with the 50/50 isomer mix (our CLA ethyl ester) have shown either a positive or no effect on insulin sensitivity.
-Pp
ScottL
Mar 24 2008, 04:34 PM
QUOTE(Primordial Performance @ Mar 24 2008, 05:06 PM) [snapback]467840[/snapback]
However, all the studies that have been done in humans with the 50/50 isomer mix (our CLA ethyl ester) have shown either a positive or no effect on insulin sensitivity.
-Pp
***did increase fasting glucose in older obese subjects***
So you think there is some other mechanism for the increase in fasting blood sugar in this study done in humans?
"This study aimed to determine the effect of supplementation with conjugated linoleic acids (CLAs) plus n-3 long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids (n-3 LC-PUFAs) on body composition, adiposity, and hormone levels in young and older, lean and obese men."
NB: I certainly don't mean to imply that CLA is (by itself) going to turn anyone diabetic, but there is some effect.