I just received my phyto test and toco 8 from Primordial Performance on friday.

GOALS:
Gain LBM
Strength
Increase Libido

Body type:
Meso

Diet:
After doing a snow in june my diet hasn't been near as hardcore as it used to be. My main goal now is to make sure that i get in 250+ grams of protein a day. I also eat junk food cookies milk shake etc 1-2 times a week. other then that its all b/s chicken breast, salmon, steak eggs and whey. carbs mainly consist of mws after workout, cereal, and bread.

Other supplements:
All the whey protein powder.
Labrada joint complex
occasional multi.

Workout
heavy weight + volume. reps will be in the 4-12 range and for squats i like to keep them in the 12-25 range.
Monday legs
Tuesday off
Wensday shoulders
Thursday off
Friday back/bis
Saturday chest /tris

Weight as of 02/23/08
210 pre workout.
if i had to guestimate bodyfat on the high side i would say 8-10%

Other then that i'm not going to bore everyone with consistently updating my log when i gain 2 reps and 1.25lbs on my dead lift. I will weigh myself every other day or so and report back when i notice the supplements working or a side effect.


For 10% off your order use coupon code "Quinc10%" at www.primordialperformance.com

Took my first does saturday night and Primo has a mean joke they play on you. for the phyto test 1 serving is 4ml and the 2 spoons they give you are 3ml and 5ml... so anyway i took the 5ml. It doesn't taste bad at all its like a thick molases that taste like brown sugar with an after taste of orange.
Toco 8 did not come with a scoop. anyone know the best way to measure this? 1/4tsp? Also my girlfriend has a problem with her hair falling out when she is on birth control so i might have her try the toco 8 with me depending on what Primo has to say about it? and my last question is if it needs to be refrigerated for quality purposes? Reason i ask is it is real hard to mix even when you shake the hell out of it so i'm thinking that it may mix better if it where warmer?


One quick note, after sex this morning i noticed an increase in volume, compared to sex Saturday morning.

Another question for Primo, serving is 2x a day. what are the best times for this? i work out at 5pm i have been doing one serving in the morning pre breakfast and 2nd serving about 1 hour after workout.

Yes, the serving size for Toco-8 is 1/4 teaspoon (tsp) lightly packed and leveled. Weve been sure to get a serving scoop in all orders from here on out. (apperently there was some confusion in the packing dept)

You want to take Toco-8 2x a day, about 12 hrs apart for each dose. You dont have to refrigerate the Toco if your going to use it in the next couple months.

-Pp

What about for the Phyto test? and is toco 8 ok for females?

You bet Toco is ok for female. I just gave my mother her 3rd can, and she says she is already noticing new small hairs poking their way out. (placebo perhaps?) She had a low HDL level before she started too, so I’m curious to see how much the Toco improves her cholesterol situation.

You want to dose the Phyto-Test into 2-4 doses. Its best to break up into smaller doses and spread them out throughout the day.

-Pp

Does toco mix with water?

I haven't tried mixing it with water but I imagine it would to some extent as the base is corn starch.

I just use the scooper and throw it into my mouth,it barely has any taste and mixing it with a shake could leave to a chunk of the Toco being clumped to the sides of the glass or whatever.

I was thinking the same thing. i take the toco and the phyto straight. Also Primo you are saying to take 5ml 4 times a day or take say 2.5ml 4 times a day?

To keep a tab on strength i am going to close my #2 gripper (195lbs) as many times as i can every day at 4pm. so today i got it 10x in right hand and 4x in left hand.

2.5ml 4x a day.

-Pp

Yes, the Toco is water soluble, which makes it better absorbed than an oil based vitamin E.

-Pp

Update, i'm getting more vascular in my upper chest and shoulders, even after taking today off.

Didn't use the gripper today or weigh myself but i got a new P.R on hub pinches 51 pounds. did a 45lb plate with 2, 3lb dumbbells on top.

I have been following. How would you describe the most apparent changes in you so far?

So far I am noticing libido, and vascularity. I had a good stronger then normal shoulder workout today but I'm going to give it another week before i start making assumptions about strength. I will also try and remember to weigh myself on Friday. If anyone else is taking any Primordial products feel free to chime in.

i'd be interested in any mood alterations (ie, the stable, good mood and assertiveness you'd expect from solid test levels) if you notice any

I will try and keep that in mind. Libido is still going up, I have a feeling my girlfriend is going to hate me soon.

Do you think you are getting any bodybuilding effects from the toco-8 (essentiallly just tocotrienols)? I'm familiar with the health benefits but not the bb application.

The bodybuilding related benefits have to do with Toco-8's positive effect at increasing the pituitary concentration of LH/FSH, and increasing the testes sensitivity to these gonadotropins.

-Pp

The three studies referenced (9-11) on the Primordial Performance Toco-8 webpage refer to vitamin E deficiency (actually no mention of tocotrienols). Don't get me wrong I like tocotrienols for the myriad of health benefits. It also looks like a grade A hair regrowth product (that is actually good for you). Here are the abstracts of the referenced studies:

AKAZAWA, N., MIKAMI, S. and KIMURA, S. Effects of Vitamin E Deficiency on the Hormone Secretion of the Pituitary-Gonadal Axis of the Rat. Tohoku J. exp. Med., 1987, 152 (3), 221-229 Chronological changes of gonadotropin (FSH and LH) and testosterone concentrations in the serum were measured in vitamin E deficient rats to investigate the effects of vitamin E deficiency on the pituitary-gonadal function in rats. The receptor sites and association constant (Ka) for LH and the formation of cyclic AMP in the Leydig cells were also investigated. The results obtained in the present study are as follows: 1) The vitamin E deficient rats showed almost complete hemolysis and extremely increased TBA reacting substances (TBARS) in the serum and liver. 2) The serum LH concentration in the vitamin E deficient group was slightly higher than in the vitamin E supplemented group during the later periods of experiment. 3) The serum FSH concentration in the vitamin E deficient group did not differ significantly from that in vitamin E supplemented group, but became significantly higher than that in the latter at 186 days of experiment. 4) The serum testosterone concentration was always lower in the vitamin E deficient group than in the control. 5) The vitamin E deficient group showed slightly large number of LH/hCG receptor and significantly small Ka (low affinity), as compared with vitamin E supplemented group. The formation of cyclic AMP by Leydig cells decreased significantly in vitamin E deficient group. These results suggest that the vitamin E deficiency exerted a suppressive effect directly on the gonadal function to decrease the hormone synthesis in the Leydig cells and caused the increased secretion of pituitary LH owing to the feedback mechanism.

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UMEDA, F., KATO, K., IBAYASHI, H., KOJIMA, M., SHIBATA, Y. and YAMAMOTO, T. Inhibitory Effect of Vitamin E on Lipoperoxide Formation in Rat Adrenal Gland. Tohoku J. exp. Med., 1982, 137 (4), 369-377 - The tissue uptake of vitamin E administered to the rats was strikingly high in the adrenal glands, and microradioautographic studies showed that the vitamin was localized morphologically in the cells of fascicular and reticular zones of the adrenal cortex, where lipofuscin pigment appears with aging. On the other hand, it was confirmed that the TBA content in rat plasma and adrenal gland was elevated following whole-body 60Co irradiation as an aging model. It was also demonstrated that the TBA content in rat adrenal markedly increased in conditions of vitamin E deficiency with and without irradiation. - vitamin E; lipoperoxide formation; rat adrenal gland
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The effects of vitamin E deficiency on some enzymes of steroid hormone biosynthesis.
The effect of vitamin E deficiency on three enzyme systems involved in steroidogenesis was investigated. No change was found in vitro activity of cholesterol side-chain cleavage enzyme in adrenal or testicular tissue, or of 11-beta-hydroxylase activity in adrenal tissue. Significantly less 3-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity was found in ovarian tissue from female rats given a diet deficient in vitamin E for 141 days, and in testicular tissue and adrenal glands from male rats given the deficient diet for 280 days. Testicular tissue from male rats given the deficient diet for 91 days showed considerably less 3-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity than did tissue from control rats, but the difference was not statistically significant.

Health_nutty,

Im not sure where you got the first reference, but our #9 reference is with normal healthy men whom are non-vitamin E deficient. (ages 30-69)

Also, keep in mind that any ‘vitamin E’ used in that time period (70’s – 80’s) was of a more natural form consisting of a natural tocopherol mix of isomers (different than most Vit E's found today with the single alpha tocopherol). The Toco-8 includes all four of the Tocopherol isomers which would be similar to what was used in the study, plus the addition of the small, more mobile Tocotrienol isomers. The same benefits could be expected.

Anyway here is the study -

Effect of vitamin E on function of pituitary-gonadal axis in male rats and human subjects.
F Umeda, K Kato, K Muta, and H Ibayashi
Endocrinol Jpn, June 1, 1982; 29(3): 287-92.

The role of vitamin E in the endocrine system, in particular the pituitary-gonadal axis, was studied in humans and male rats by examining the hormonal differences between vitamin E deficient and supplemented conditions. In vitamin E deficient rats, pituitary content and basal plasma level of FSH and LH were significantly lower than those of the control rats, but testicular content and basal plasma level of testosterone were not significantly changed. On the other hand, in vitamin E supplemented rats, FSH and LH content in pituitary tissue was significantly higher than that of the controls, but there was no significant rise in basal FSH and LH level in plasma. The testosterone level was significantly elevated in both testicular tissue and plasma. It was also demonstrated that basal plasma testosterone and F.T.I. were increased in normal male subjects following oral vitamin E administration and the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG was significantly higher during vitamin E administration than before administration. These results suggest that vitamin E may play an important and potent role in hormone production in the pituitary-gonadal axis in humans and rats.

worked out back and bi's today, i have been feeling alot more energy these last couple days and i had more energy in the gym today then i knew what to do with. which was a great feeling. weight is still at 212, i'm getting better then normal pumps, and still becoming more vascular. As far as noticing toco - 8 i really couldn't tell you. I think I am getting a promo at work so if i do and get insurance benefits before my cycle is over i will get blood work done.

Was so posed to do legs today but they are still sore from last mondays workout. oops.. anyway libido is still going up, my g/f is starting to get annoyed with me humping her leg all night. Appetite is way up as well. i used to have to time my meals to make sure i would eat, now i feel like i'm hungry all the time. Abs are starting to show more detail even after taking in more calories. (ate about 2lbs worth of cake in the last 2 days.

Weighed in today. 208. down 4lbs. energy is still high in the gym but strength is down. i'm going to up my carb intake and hopefully gain some weight.

Did back today new p.r on pull ups. also i think the scale at the gym is off, today it said that i weighed 214 so thats a 6lb gain in 2 days... Other then that i saw an 1980's honda accord limo. it was really ugly. haha

Update. I'm starting to have a-lot less doms. chest and legs are usually sore as hell for 3-5 days. did chest on sunday and felt 100% by wensday. did legs on tuesday finished off with 10 tire flips (525lb) and they felt a little sore but not debilitating sore like they normally feel. then i did shoulders finished with 15 tire flips (in a row) on wensday and legs where pretty sore this morning but feel fine tonight. So these are helping alot with doms as well. As for size and strength nothing to write home about yet. however, libido is still high and I'm still seeing more volume viscosity and distance. "its in my hair!!!" before phyto it was rare i made it past her belly button. let me know if i'm adding to much info..

Update. i think my libido leveled out. i'm also feeling less doms. And i'm up to 216.

This was the last big week and i fuked it all up. I got my promo at work and my hours changed plus taking 2 night classes. so anyway i'm only able to work out sat sun and monday now... I worked out today and weighed in at 216. Stress levels are real high my libido isn't near as good as it was but still better then normal. I also noticed that i had a noticeable amount of dandruff for about 4 days, maybe the toco 8? It seems to be gone now though.

Final thoughts;

Phyto Testosterone,
Libido 8/10
Gains in libido where great, volume, recovery in volume was good but the instant recovery could have been better.
Strength 4/10
I cant say that i noticed much in the way of strength other then having more motivation for more "good days" but no big gains.
Size 5/10
I believe this is partly my fault as not taking in the surplus of calories i could have been. Today i weighed in at 216.

Toco 8

I don't have any problems with balding, or anything hair wise, but i do like the other benefits that toco 8 has to offer, without blood testing i'm not sure if it does anything?


I mentioned my new job before and they offer insurance so once i get that all figured out I will be picking up some more toco 8 and the new Endoamp and I will be doing before and after blood work with those. I will update in here with a new link when that happens.

Thanks for the log.