Out of curiosity, since these two compounds are the two best known to treat gyno without surgery, if one was able to source both of them, would running them together be more effective than either alone?

In a locallized carrier (GEl #3) DHT applied on chest would be effective. No reason to inject Epi, though.

Are you saying that epi can be taken orally, or are you saying it would be overkill on top of the DHT?

Epi is methylated and designed to be taken orally. I think oral Epi plus localized DHT applied to nipple region would be a kickass combo to reduce symptoms of gyno/pseudo-gyno.

I found the same results using 3-aa powder in gel # 3.

I think by "epi" he was referring to epitiostanol (non-methylated version).

I tried using 3-AA back in the day - didn't do much for me, but I might not have used enough or used it for long enough.

I think he meant the unmethylated version that's actually meant to be injected.

I was referring to actual Epitiostanol, not making an injectable out of your product Since the studies were done with injectable Epitiostanol, 20mg per week for 5-8 weeks, I'm going to assume that it would be the superior method because methylation can change a compound's nature, correct? I'm assuming that's why I had a negative reaction to Havoc at 40mg ED (gyno flair up, worse than ever); but people are seeing reduction in gyno at 20mg ED...so it's a strange compound, IMO.

Gotcha...My mistake. You don't see too much of the unmethylated raw around, which is why I just FIGGered.

Does anyone have any numbers from a blood test for the estrogen levels post-Havoc vs. pre-Havoc?

I just finished a 2-week havoc cycle, started at 2 ED and ramped up to 4-5 for the alst couple days.

Nipples are sore -- but it feels like skin abrasion from the lipoderm more than anything.

Started topical DHT the day I stopped the havoc (~3 days ago), and my libido has never been lower. Don't know what the fuck is going on, can't hardly get an erection and can't keep one for the life of me.

I use MDHT when I am on a cycle. I t is a good harderner, and an excellent pre-workout supplement, to help add intensity to your workouts.
However, I would be interested to know how the DHT effects your gyno. Before and after pics would be cool.

Are you applying the topical DHT and the Lipoderm to your chest???

There's a log -- search for dashforce vs gyno round 2

Dashforce I belive DHT lowers estrogen and some E2 is necessary for libido. If your endogenous test is lowered post HAVOC you got very little substrate (test) for aromatase to convert to estrogen and topical DHT might slash whatevers left to zero.

Just a guess , no way to know without the labs.

I think it depends on how much of the DHT is going systemic, doesn't it? He's using Andractim, so I'm thinking there is at least some going this route.

if andrictim is really exerting that kind of systemic effect within 3 days I am indeed impressed

This is one of my theories as well. My shoulder was hurting last night, as it often does with either low carb or low estrogen (AI/havoc).
In addition to libido, my mood and energy sucks today. Bad. And I have a headache. According to this little article, low estrogen may well be the issue.

Maybe I'll down a quart of soy milk and see if that helps; at least that will identify the problem.

The question is why my nipples are looking bigger, not smaller, if my E is low and DHT is high...



There is... normally. I looked up a study the other day on its pharmacokinetics (on a few young boys 1-8 with microphallus) and was really surprised -- in one or two, DHT SPIKED at 1 hr, another one or two at 2-3 hrs, and several had no plasma increase at all. Weird.



Not just andractim -- remember, I purposely did a havoc cycle first to induce this type of effect (if that's really what we're seeing).

Sorry, I'll move this convo back to my thread (AAMOF, I think I'll copy this post there, too).

you took havoc so you'd get puffy nipples and kill your libido? By incredible systemic effect I meant your killed libido and soreness.

Well, the idea was to get shut down. So the libido part follows naturally (I didn't think it would be this bad!). The puffy nipples, I'm not sure what that's all about...

I don't understand the logic behind trying to get shutdown first...

Here is some info on an old UG product that was very popular in treating gyno:

I am going to post a little log on endocrine_supply 's new topical antigyno, i have never used this product before but have used his orals many times which are top quality along with his injectables

there has already been a couple logs on this product on outlaw which went well..so i thought meso could use a log on this product too

some info before i begin log

"Anti-G is a two-phase topical preparation designed for the prevention and possible treatment of Gynecomastia*. It is a combination of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), Letrozol (femara), Aromasin (exemestane) administered transdermaly to the immediate nipple region. It is intended to prevent gyno symptoms including flare up of glandular nipple size and irritation. Anti-G will act to eliminate local estrogen formation and inhibit estrogen receptor activation.

This product is very unique in that it contains two of the most powerful estrogen inhibitors and a strong androgen for a powerful synergistic effect. DHT is a powerful androgen which has been shown to directly compete with estrogen at the estrogen receptor AND inhibit estrogen mediated progesterone receptor concentration. Anti-G also includes Letrozol, which is a potent aromatase inhibitor, and Aromasin, which is a suicide inhibitor meaning once it binds to the aromatase enzyme it is permanently bound for long term estrogen suppression. (Leaving no room for estrogenic rebound). All of these powerful ingredients have a low MW making them ideal for transdermal delivery.

Kits are sold in two separate 10ml roll on applicators that will last up to four weeks with 2x daily treatments. The first bottle (phase 1) is a DMSO permeation enhancer that primes the skin for local delivery. The second bottle (phase 2) contains the proprietary blend of DHT, Aromasin, and Letrozol."

That stuff sounds excellent!!!

Basically, it's the same logic as using all those fancy AIs and SERMS -- if I shut down my T production, then aromatization to E will go down the toilet as well. So as long as I go directly from suppressive androgen (epi) to another suppressive androgen (andractim), my androgen levels will remain high and my estrogen extremely low (so low that I have ZERO libido and my joints are killing me, although my androgen levels are probably quite high).

I used the epi to shut me down first because it's cheaper than andractim, so it should (in theory) "maximize" the anti-gyno effect.


Sounds like that stuff has all the basic ingredients that everyone's already tried a billion times -- which work in theory, usually work in recent-onset gyno (esp AAS-induced), but for some reason are ineffective for persistent pubertal gyno.

you have to admit though Dash that transdermal delivery is a little new, at least to our little research group.

On that note, why didn't you do havoc + adrictim at the same time?

People reported wonderful results using ES's anti-gyno kit. But that is long gone; he went out of business years ago. I never tried it but I know it was popular.

Trandermal delivery is a cool thing all on its own, but its main purpose would be either avoiding system effects (like lipoderm or possibly andractim) or avoiding hepatic metabolism to increase bioavailability (like transdermal test or andractim). Other than those two reasons, I don't see why transdermal would be better than systemic. Especially for the AI -- there's a shitload of peripheral aromatase that it won't be affecting (which the SERM should take care of, but why not just use a systemic AI in that case?)

I didn't see the advantage of Havoc + andractim simultaneously. Andractim essentially does everything we want -- it competes for aromatase (AI effects), it reportedly has effects at the estrogen receptor (again, competitively), it shuts down endegenous T to slow the rate of E formation in the first place, and it activates the androgen receptor quite potently. That's the whole package -- what could epi add? I figured my $$ was better spent using epi to "prep" my body for the andractim so the effects of low E were felt from day 1 instead of taking time to fall to low levels.

well a suicide inhibitor right on the nips for local inhibition sounds like a winner to your boy.

Also, I wasn't aware of havoc cause that kind of shut down. I thought it was supposed to be rather mild.

Suicide inhibitor on the nips is great -- but how does it help prevent T->E conversion in other body sites? That E would be just as free to activate the "nips" receptors as it would be if converted in situ.

So at the minimum, combination of localized AI and SERM would be necessary. But if you've got a localized SERM going on, what's the use of an AI? And besides, some trains of thought seem to think that ERa activation by E2 shuts down mammary mRNA (very good for our purposes). So some level of E2 pointed in the right direction could be a good thing.

As far as havoc and shutdown -- yes, it is supposed to be quite mild. I wasn't expecting a hard-core all-out shutdown, just an edge.

if your killing estro receptors for good locally why would it matter if T -> E went up? Not to mention that even if it did if it's expression is seriously reduced in the local nip area it couldn't get into that dangerous elevated level (locally) that's helping create the problem in the first place.

I can't comment on use of letro as well... I think this is one of those subjects that at one point we may have to admit that we don't know exactly what's going on and fall back on brotelligence. Am I pursonally at that point? No I haven't really tried yet... But i think at one point we'll look back on this on say "why didn't we listen to the juicers?"

And what did they say?

.......

Oh that...didn't realize that's what you were talking about.

No offense but most of the people on this board couldnt hold a candle to the mind behind XXXXXXXXX, juicer or not.

bb

I don't understand what you're saying. Killing estrogen receptors for good? Are you talking about that fulvestrant (is that the right stuff?) pure ER antagonist? It's like $800 for one month's dose.

Problem with local AI -- estrogen from the rest of the body.

Problem with local SERM (BTW, important to note that SERMs can be agonists and antagonists at the ER, and act as differential ligands at ERa and ERb). In other words, a SERM could be activating the ER just like estrogen would have done, or it could be disinhibiting mRNA transcription that was inhibited by estrogen (ie ERb).

Potential second problem with local SERM -- bioavailability (compared to oral) may be decreased, requiring higher doses for the same effect.

Third "problem" with local SERM -- you wouldn't be getting the increase in T that you would from a systemic SERM like clomid/ralox.

In other words, I just don't see what advantage local administration would have over systemic WRT AI, SERM.

Local androgen is a different story -- local androgenic effects with attenuated HPTA shutdown and attenuated systemic androgenic effect. Good.

DMSO is primarily for systemic, not local delivery, correct?

I still think your over thinking it into complete and utter smool. You have anecdotel evidence on a large scale here, and dash - let's face it


We should just kill ourselves now and save ourselves the embarrassment

lol -- no shit.

My issue with anecdote is not that it's improbable, but that it's not applicable to our case.

I have yet to see anecdote (or legitimate data for that matter) of complete resolution of persistent, pubescent gyno, except when there was an underlying pathology that was corrected (liver cirrhosis or a tumor).

There seems to be a change after the gyno has persisted for some years. AAS - induced, or short term gyno (caught while still in puberty) does have significant anecdote to support a myriad of method that promote resolution. However, if it is pubertal in nature, and you're several years past completing puberty, even the anecdotal reports of success are scant.

I understand, yet just personally speaking, I hate to see you completely rule them out as a possible plan of attack.

Maybe just take the info and stick it in your back pocket for later... Or I'll bump these threads in three years. Just for my special boy.


On another train of thought - I don't know how bad these cases of gyno are in these reports, but your's is incredibly bad. I would suspect we'd need something fool proof to solve your conundrum.

Just because you dont know the people in the UG industry or the fact that the UG industry is the birthplace of the majority of the supplement companies and the people behind them...well those stupid juicers dont know anything anyway.

bb

you are hereby challeneged to quote an insult I made WRT juicers. No reason to force another argument as your so good at doing.

Ouch. Remember that I am exaggerating my posture in my gyno pics to make it as visible as possible (maximal protraction and depression of the shoulder, posterior extension of the humerus). With normal posture, I have never gotten a comment in my life except from those few people whose attention I have called specifically to my nips and assumed this posture.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, I never even noticed until last summer.



I think you misunderstood him -- Jake was defending them, whereas I was being critical of ideas without much scientific support. Not that they can't be good ideas, just that I don't often deem them worthy of my money/health/time.

EDIT: And from our past usage of Havoc/equivalent clones, I suggest that both Jake and I fall into a subcategory of "juicers." Those are steroids, after all.

Thanks for clearing that up dash. Misunderstanding are the worst.

I wasn't trying to insult you, sir. My any means. Just saying you're seems to hang a bit more than I've seen on most people (admittedly I haven't seen a shit ton of pics of gyno). This must be exaggerated with arms crossing the body and hanging elbows and the like. I didn't mean to make it seem like I was taking a poke at you.

Mine actually seem to go down and up all the time (probably due to diet more than anything), and are usually sensative, hard, or puffy. meh.

ZING!!!!111!!!!


Want me to pull the dagger out of your back?

My apologies then Jake. Dash I merely wanted to add something to this discourse. In my profession, I am result-oriented. Therefore I look at a product like what XXXXXXX produced as acceptable b/c of the market forces involved. People will buy products that dont work in the short-run but in the long-run people will eventually stop buying products that dont work. Therefore the free market eventually deals with manufacturers of shitty products. I know that that particular product was on the market for several years, that it was very popular and that when it was no longer being manufactured and the # of products was drying up, the price of it shot up tremendously (b/c the market force of appreciation applies to products that work). Personally I am not process-oriented: I dont care as much about the hows/whys/wheres of a lot of products (as long as I feel that they are safe). Hell I know LSD works and works well but most scientists still cant fully explain the hows/whys of LSD. And of course its still a pretty popular product Good luck guys, gyno sucks bad. Most guys I know have had to turn to surgery.

bb

lol, damnit! I wasn't bashing on him at all!


Dash can kill a yak from 100 yards away... With MIND BULLETS! (that's telekinesis Kyle..)

Not to mention the dude get all kind of props for getting his girl to have the big 'O' for the first time AND be on the first edition of M&M GQ(which I was pinning for.. ya bastid).

honestly though, I really didn't mean for it be a zinger. At all.

Jake -- literally lol. No worries. Do a Google image search for "gynecomastia" to see what real gyno is like -- as long as mine doesn't get so bad that I have to wear a compression garment, I'll be okay.



I didn't mean to downplay your contributions here -- you're a smart and well-respected guy and your input is much appreciated. There's a shitload to be said for being result-oriented... I mean even if you're looking for "scientific evidence," you Pubmed "cellular basis for skeletal muscle hypertrophy" and come up with a billion possible routes at a biochemical level (Jake's "alternate pathways for anabolism" or oswaldo's posts exemplify this). Or, you can just search for "milk" and "lean body mass" and say "Oh, wow. Milk makes muscle real good." And unless you're really good at this shit, 99% of the population will definitely benefit more from drinking more milk than from knowing all about Akt/PKB activation or what have you.

That was a long-winded way to say "thanks for the input," and "I agree that real-world results draw the bottom line."

LOL I know...but it was still funny.

No mentioning of source names in this thread please. Thanks.

Not a source anymore K, he is long retired and long out of the game. That name doesnt even exist anymore except in memories....

bb