Not often but more than I would like when I take AMP, or coffee or any stimulant combo, the second dose or when I really need it, instead of kicking in, makes me tired(er?) or sleepy.

I take stimulants very infrequently, not even once a week. Daily I have one cup of coffee and that's it. Why would this be?

Quite often, I fall asleep after high doses of caffeine.

However, there's also a high correlation between times that I take a lot of caffeine and times that I'm sleep deprived in the first place.

I think you hit the nail there, I use stimulants when I'm sleep deprived

Just came across this, found it interesting. Weren't you testing out clomid for an endocrine disorder?

The role of estradiol and progesterone in modulating the subjective effects of stimulants in humans.
Evans SM.

New York State Psychiatric Institute, New York, NY 10032, USA. se18@columbia.edu

Although stimulant abuse is a growing problem among women, few studies have focused on factors that may be implicated in potential sex differences. Numerous preclinical studies have indicated that female rodents are more sensitive than male rodents to the behavioral effects of stimulants and that the hormone estradiol is involved in these sex differences. In humans, the subjective response to stimulants is greater in the follicular phase (characterized by moderate estradiol levels and minimal progesterone levels) than in the luteal phase (characterized by elevated estradiol levels and elevated progesterone levels). Differences between men and women emerge only when men are compared with women in the luteal phase; the subjective response to stimulants is similar in men and women in the follicular phase. In contrast to rodents, there is minimal evidence that estradiol enhances the subjective response to stimulants in humans. Rather, the hormone progesterone has been shown to attenuate the subjective response to stimulants, particularly in women. Recent preclinical data confirm that progesterone reduces the behavioral response to stimulants. In summary, there is converging evidence from studies in humans that (a) men and women do differ in their subjective response to stimulants; (b) these sex differences are evident when women are in the luteal phase, when progesterone levels are elevated; and © progesterone administration attenuates the subjective response to stimulants. Therefore, the menstrual cycle should be addressed in mixed-gender studies. Moreover, the modulatory effects of progesterone on reducing the positive effects of cocaine may have some clinical utility in treating stimulant abusers. © 2007 APA

PMID: 17924776 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Yeh Dash pure caffeine, which I have tried in times where I feel like having a nap, has actually made it easier to sleep.

This however are times where you are really buggered and can't resist the urge to sleep.

During the day at sometime I have large urges to sleep. I would love to workout how to move this urge to the correct time to sleep.

Although it often makes it harder to sleep, I believe it's supposed to make sleep more restful, through competitive inhibition of cytochrome p450, which also metabolized melatonin. Maybe.

Yes on Clomid still

I'm starting here in a few weeks, plus 25 mg ATD EOD, as well as some bromo. I'm excited.

/sidetrack

I'll bet you a dollar to a donut that a light box (there are good blue and green spectrum models out there) can make this correction for you. I've had good results with them in the past. (although if it's a mid afternoon slump, then diet may be more of a factor than light. )

Phase delay right? Yeh I shall hit more morning sunshine as much as I can.

But it is also more of a mid afternoon slump, so phase delay plus diet. What is your info on the diet side of things, simply low carbs for lunchtime?

do you take other things regularly?

Melatonin, daily...as I have mentioned before I have hypothalamus problem that spill over to other areas of my life

and Dash, skip the ATD, use TD formestane or 6-oxo instead

Pretty much. And nix morning stimulants.

some RJ or bleuberry extract can help you. you have problems at your NMDA/glutamate, I think.


I know there is something related to antihistamines restoring stim tolerance, but haven't researched that yet.

I often have heard the antihistamine thing, Benadryl in particular, but from what I recall the research is not very overwhelming.

However the NDMA angle is intriguing I have to do some research and try to understand it. This one is very interesting, as what I have (Cluster Headaches) originates due to and extra "growth" in the suprachiasmic nuclii:

**********************************

J Neurosci. 2007 Jun 13;27(24):6412-6. Links
Suprachiasmatic modulation of noradrenaline release in the ventrolateral preoptic nucleus.
Saint-Mleux B, Bayer L, Eggermann E, Jones BE, Mühlethaler M, Serafin M.Département de Neurosciences Fondamentales, Centre Médical Universitaire, 1211 Genève 4, Switzerland.

As the major brain circadian pacemaker, the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) is known to influence the timing of sleep and waking. We thus investigated here the effect of SCN stimulation on neurons of the ventrolateral preoptic nucleus (VLPO) thought to be involved in promoting sleep. Using an acute in vitro preparation of the rat anterior hypothalamus/preoptic area, we found that whereas single-pulse stimulations of the SCN evoked standard fast ionotropic IPSPs and EPSPs, train stimulations unexpectedly evoked a long-lasting inhibition (LLI). Such LLIs could also be evoked in VLPO neurons by pressure application of NMDA within the SCN, indicating the specific activation of SCN neurons. This LLI was shown to result from the presynaptic facilitation of noradrenaline release, because it was suppressed in presence of yohimbine, a selective antagonist of alpha2-adrenoreceptors. The LLI depended on the opening of a potassium conductance, because it was annulled at E(K) and could be reversed below E(K). These results show that the SCN can provide an LLI of the sleep-promoting VLPO neurons that could play a role in the circadian organization of the sleep-waking cycle.

PMID: 17567801 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Check out Reset AD. It's worked pretty well for me and others swear by it for restoring/reducing stim tolerance. Plus it's cheaper than three 5 dollar whores.

Also of interest is it contains progesterone. I have some reading to do reading that, but it piques my interest.

i had (have?) a similar problem when taking stimulants while sleep deprived and stressed.

i had been using ambien for about a month or two every night and still not sleeping well resulting in what was likely a deep sleep deficit. then during a very stressful period of studying for qualifying exams and some family illness, i would get so zonked out after taking dex or adderall that i would literally fall asleep sitting upright with clothes on. this caused more stress trying to figure out why this was happening, and caused even more of a soporific effect with the stimulants.

are you under heavy stress? or experiencing a prolonged sleep deficit/usage of sleep meds?

someone here suggested a glutamatergic overload in my case due to prolonged expsoure to both of the above. it seemed to make sense, as if my system was so stressed that it would literally shut down (i.e. essentially passing out for a period of time) when exposed to the added stress of a stimulant.

food for thought...

geranamine really puts me to sleep, it's weird. Even if I take it during the day when i feel awake but just want an extra kick, i want to shut my eyes for a few (and usually do). It gives me body energy but makes me really "head tired," if that makes sense...

Yeh I understand that. I get like that sometimes on stims. I don't know the mechanism though.

So I'm *not* weird?

No, *we* are the weird ones.

it could be that it passes through your system really fast and that you're already feeling the crash before you even notice the "high"... i have the same problem.

That is an interesting concept, but it may be more akin to U-shape response curve that is experienced with GABAergics like valerian and phenibut

you mean they have a stimulant effect at high enough dose? or just greater activity because of disinhibition.?

traditionally that is for women.

I think he meant pregnenolone, I understood what he meant...but either way my receptors are OK. I don't take stimulants in great amounts, very often

I guess he was sort of right its a precursor DHEA and progesterone (just saw this)

LOL, I made a mistake, oz was right and I was almost half right by dumb luck.

hmm, have you noticed any other positives from taking it, beyond partially re-sensitizing your receptors?

Is it true that women's hormonal fluctuation due to cycles or abnormal hormones due to pcos affect stimulant impact? I always thought that the negative response was mediated by pcos induced insulin resistance...

if so, i have a question that might hijack the thread, but can be posted elsewhere if that's just not cool. my question is how i would detect such hormonal problems and get med's adjusted correctly?