Sort of a Glucophase XR++:
Na R-Alpha Lipoic Acid 200 MG
Biotin 500 MCG
Quercetin 200 MG
Vanadium 2000 MCG
Naringin 50 MG

Yes? No? Maybe so?

Probably a typo but Biotin 5000 mcg.

Not sure kinetics of vanadium action make sense in this context vanadium.

Naringin is for p450? or?

That sounds better wrt biotin, as I took the amount based on D-Biotin.

Seems that, based on what I was able to find, that vanadium is ~20% of vanadyl sulfate. Could be wrong, but that's why I'm inquiring.

p450 is why I have naringin in there, though upon further inspection it doesn't look like it's of any worth in the absence of stims.

If you're going to use vanadium (and I have no idea if it makes any sense), look into BMOV if it is not too expensive.

Don't think such thing would be really worth it. You have stuff like DCP and fibrates for this.

You talking exclusively glucose control or something-to-take-when-I-cheat?

Basically a when I cheat/TKD type of situation.

GTE
how possible is it to get dietary acidic acid in powder form?

Green Tea Extract assists in partitioning? This is news to me.

recent train wreck thread on GTE started by Odium revealed it's use for delaying/inhibiting gluconeogenesis. Not necessarily partitioning per se, but the title us glucose control so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Some others to consider:

Bitter melon
Banaba
Cinnamon
Sodium acetate (might only work if taken WITH food)

Also, if you're looking at it from a partioning standpoint vs. a purely glucose standpoint, there are other substances you could include to increase protein synthesis, increase fat burning, etc. - leucine (increases protein synthesis) and TTA (burns fatty acids, improves insulin sensitivity) both come to mind.

Like I was saying, I'm thinking Glucophase XR++; it's easy to get kitchen sink about this.

Gotcha - you said it was a when-I-cheat supp, so I figured I'd mention other options.

I think the stack at is looks good. Maybe drop the naringin.

ALA is absorbed poorly with food.

I would go with Chromium, Sodium Acetate, Bitter Melon probably too

What sort of dose with chromium? I'm not familiar with it and will research later.

HUH? Care to back that one up or explain?

its been discussed here before.

Are you talking about the problems that SOME forms of ALA have with stability e.g. solved by salt forms, or somethings that applies to all forms of ALA? If not, ALA has 3 letters so I really can't search to find what you're talking about. CLues?

Gleiter CH, Schug BS, Hermann R, Elze M, Blume HH, Gundert-Remy U. Influence of food intake on the bioavailability of thioctic acid enantiomers. Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1996;50(6):513-514.

"Taking LA with food decreased peak plasma LA concentrations by about 30% and total plasma LA concentrations by about 20% compared to fasting"

I read something somewhere that the more acidic your stomach is, the less ALA is absorbed. so I imagine large binges are even worse.

"Taking LA with food decreased peak plasma LA concentrations"

Well of course, ALA and anything else taken with food will be absorbed more slowly so peak levels will be less.

"decreased total plasma LA concentrations by about 20% compared to fasting"

OK now this seems to agree with what you're saying...I think.

Thanks I need to look into this.

this ofcourse is incorrect.

OK let me be more precise. Take any supplement put it in a stomach with food, a decent sized meal. The meal will slow down gastric emptying. Thus when compared to taking supplement on an empty stomach, the supplement will leave the stomach not all at once, but more gradually. Thus blood levels of the supplement will rise more slowly.

You must know this so perhaps there is something I'm not thinking of, or you are overlooking.

Scott, here is a link to the full paper with the graph showing concentrations. While AUC is significantly higher with fasted administration, this could go back to the arguments over which is more important: spiking plasma levels vs. sustained levels over a long time period (for non-diabetic applications).

http://www.springerlink.com/content/1n3awx...89/fulltext.pdf

this is just one of many parameters that effect absorption. empirically, it snot correalted with absorption of many chemicals (i.e there are some who absorb better and faster with food)

Liorrh,

OK yes I stand corrected there are some supps e.g. coenzyme Q-10 which need some factor e.g. fat for better absorption. However I do not think this applies to the majority of supps, and unless you've read something I have not, it does not apply to lipoic acid.

So this statement

"Taking LA with food decreased peak plasma LA concentrations"

For lipoic acid, is indeed obvious.

no its not.

see piracetam and deprenyl, both water soluble but absorb about 20 fold with food.

But it does not apply to lipoic acid right?

what is?
man, I totally lost you. you asked something, I provided answer and evidence.

My wife and I have been using this formula since october.

Biotin 500mcg
Quercetin 250mg
Naringin 50mg
NARALA 150mg
Coleus Forskohlii 50mg
Green Tea 500mg

It has definately been a good recomper, plus I like the added Naringin for increase absorbtion. If I was going to use a Glucose Disposal only it would look like this

Biotin 500mcg
Quercetin 250mg
Naringin 50mg
NARALA 150mg
Bitter Melon 75mg
Chromium 50mg
Banaba Leaf 100mg

"Taking LA with food decreased peak plasma LA concentrations"

MY only point was, lipoic acid does not have absorption increased by fat/food so this statement is what you would expect.

A recomper is the way to think about what I'm trying to do, as I'd use it mostly during my carb refeed after my workouts (I'm on a TKD of sorts for bulking).

Thanks for the suggestion.

Pills Per Serving: 2
Servings Per Batch: 150
Pills Per Batch: 300
Number of Batches:
Ingredients

%DV
Na R-Alpha Lipoic Acid 150 MG N/A
Garcinia cambogia fruit 250 MG N/A
Coleus Forskohlii 50 MG N/A
Bitter Melon Ext. 200 MG N/A
Green Tea Extract 250 MG N/A

Total:59.72

then you can throw in that nice M&M discount he provided in the other thread...

with 6% space to spare

Garcinia has some nice properties and I didn't even know about it. Awesome!

Yep. Lyle writes about it a lot in his old runs with Bodyopus. It puts the "hydroxy" in Hydroxycut

btw, if anyone wants to get in on a bulk order of something like this and then split it up to take advantage of the savings....I'm down and will gladly organize and handle the splitting/shipping duties. Formulation open to suggestions as well.

Liorrh, judging from my M&M & imminst sightings, you seem to be 'down' on the many forms & means of ALA supplementation.

What's your verdict?

Na/K-R/ALA? With a shit load of water and/or baking soda (reduce acidity)?



Cheers

NA-R