QUOTE(Spook @ May 17 2004, 07:25 AM) [snapback]151187[/snapback]
See this is a tough one. I can't give you a simple yes/no answer. I can break it down for you and let you decide.
On one hand as PA pointed out when discussing GPA in relation to Syntrax Swole it is counter productive to take GPA and creatine at the same time as they compete for uptake at the cellular level. So thats one strike against using them at the same time.
On the other hand the only real downside to phenogen is possible AMPK activation in Type II fast twitch fiber. This could be combated with phosphate sources like IP-6.
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My take is as follows:
It makes alot of sense for a very lean person to use IP-6 along with phenogen when cutting or clean bulking. Creatine not so much. This is why I said I was curious in seeing what would happen if someone very lean used phenogen with leptigen. Theoretically you would get the best of both. You would get upregulation of oxidative tissue because IP-6 and phosphate sources don't effect that tissue much (when creatine is eliminated anyway). And the increase in phospates along with the other stuff in leptigen (origional/basic) should help counteract phospate loss in glycolytic fast twitch fibers. But its to theoretical which is why I recomended you and fletch not try it pre contest.
If I were a lean person useing this on a clean bulk I would definantly add IP-6 at a minimum or prepherably leptigen. Of course small dose of creatine in leptigen and the GPA in phenogen will fight it out a little bit reducing eficacy mildly. I however would not use creatine.
Then post use I would add Leptigen and additional creatine like nitrojet or Kreatine Ultra.
For an overweight person I would do exactly as I recomended in the article. Stack phenogen with rebirth. Then post phenogen cycle use creatine and maybe IP-6.
On one hand as PA pointed out when discussing GPA in relation to Syntrax Swole it is counter productive to take GPA and creatine at the same time as they compete for uptake at the cellular level. So thats one strike against using them at the same time.
On the other hand the only real downside to phenogen is possible AMPK activation in Type II fast twitch fiber. This could be combated with phosphate sources like IP-6.
---------------------------------------
My take is as follows:
It makes alot of sense for a very lean person to use IP-6 along with phenogen when cutting or clean bulking. Creatine not so much. This is why I said I was curious in seeing what would happen if someone very lean used phenogen with leptigen. Theoretically you would get the best of both. You would get upregulation of oxidative tissue because IP-6 and phosphate sources don't effect that tissue much (when creatine is eliminated anyway). And the increase in phospates along with the other stuff in leptigen (origional/basic) should help counteract phospate loss in glycolytic fast twitch fibers. But its to theoretical which is why I recomended you and fletch not try it pre contest.
If I were a lean person useing this on a clean bulk I would definantly add IP-6 at a minimum or prepherably leptigen. Of course small dose of creatine in leptigen and the GPA in phenogen will fight it out a little bit reducing eficacy mildly. I however would not use creatine.
Then post use I would add Leptigen and additional creatine like nitrojet or Kreatine Ultra.
For an overweight person I would do exactly as I recomended in the article. Stack phenogen with rebirth. Then post phenogen cycle use creatine and maybe IP-6.
QUOTE(Spook @ Jun 13 2004, 07:54 AM) [snapback]159379[/snapback]
If cutting and over 13-15% body fat in men (add 10 for women) the you should use both. I am sorry if it was not clear from my writeup but phenogen is ment to be stacked with stimulant based lipolytic supplements. One of the bigest benefits of Phenogen is increased Beta-AR density in skeletal muscle which makes HEAT/ECA/Other work even better. So its ment to be stacked.
If I had made it a cutting only supp it would have contained stimulants and NE potentiators. But I wanted it to be useful as an anti-fat gain agent as well and stimulatns would be counter productive for that purpose. So again I assumed anyone useing phenogen on a cut would also be useing HEAT, or ECA, or something like that.
If cutting below 13-15% then I would not use phenogen.
If bulking use phenogen alone without stimulants.
If I had made it a cutting only supp it would have contained stimulants and NE potentiators. But I wanted it to be useful as an anti-fat gain agent as well and stimulatns would be counter productive for that purpose. So again I assumed anyone useing phenogen on a cut would also be useing HEAT, or ECA, or something like that.
If cutting below 13-15% then I would not use phenogen.
If bulking use phenogen alone without stimulants.
