Well first off I'm a long time lurker and now I finally have something I'd like to run by you.

It appears that HCG and Novadex are unattainable at this point in time, thus I do not wish to use a long ester/cycle. This leads me to believe that several two week on cycles run back to back would be best. Ideally I figure a tren/dbol stack would be best, or a dbol suspention/prop. or a similar mix. Whatever, problem is dbol, winny and anadrol are everywhere and obtaining ten/suspension/prop. maybe difficult. With this information assume orals are only obtainable.

I was considering dbol and winny but would rather avoid winny completely do to the joint issues. Hence the title, (sounds crazy huh?) but maybe it could work better than straight dbol. I was thinking 25 anadrol before bed and two doses dbol throughout the day 40mg total. Run at least three of these 2on/2off cycles, I would say four or five but no HCG and I'm not sure if the mini breaks will be enough for the liver to allow longer.

ALA during and after
Milk thistle during and after
B vitamins during and after
Formestane on cycle not post?
FL7 post cycle - or something else don't matter
E/C post cycle
Possibly a thyroid hormone during post - doubtful on obtaining

1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione - during and post?
or
3,6,17-androstenetrione during and post?

I'm a little bit worried about the reputation of gyno from anadrol and dbol, I was figuring maybe low loses of the above AIs during, formestane cannot be used post? and which of the two andros is best (sorry I have a head ache and can't find the info). What do you think.

Some assumptions:
150 mg anadrol = 50 mg dbol thus my dosing
anadrol anadrol is or isn't prog.? I just don't know with the conflicting info - if so what about a low dose of inj. winny
nova is best used with anadrol - thus either of the last two AIs would be best
Formestane for the dbol

Goals:
Well summer is almost here so I figure I'd like to shed the little bit of fat I have, keep or preferably increase arm size, and maintain my weight. Being how I have not done a real AAS cycle due to the above, maybe I could get pretty decent gains, maybe even add a couple lbs. Increasing or maintaining my cardio ability is desirable since: I'm looking at HIIT during the entire time, once or twice a week probably 5 min 10 sec sprint 20 second jog work my way up to 10 min or twice weekly deal.

Please do more research.
Your ideas are not sound and highly unadvisable.

The 14x14 / 14x16 / 14x21 Cycles were done with much lower doses than this to avoid PCT...

And by much lower I'm talking 5mg to 10mg of DBol ED...

Cycles were run for a year, with solid gains of approx 16lbs.

And my solid gains I mean gains kept after a year off gear, once all the fluid retention has gone, and homeostasis has kicked in...

40mg ED for two weeks will leave your HPTA massively shutdown. By the time you go back on you will have basically just been cruising...

I'd keep it simple, start from scratch and think about HPTA recovery and gyno before thinking on what to cycle...

Well I am sort of starting out from scratch. For my first cycle I wanted test/equip for 10 weeks followed by Nova/HCG. Due to the lack of nova or HCG I will not run anything if I feel gyno and HPTA recovery will be an issue. I recalled many people mentioning two week cycles, even some on the sister board running at 50mg dbol and 50mg tren.

I tried searching for more info on the two week cycles and recovery and found some were not using PCT in between but bridging with dbol at low 5-10mg doses. On the sister board there was mention of a 25 morning dose dbol 2 on/off protocol without the use of nova/hcg. Hence I came up with this thinking that anadrol has a longer half life than dbol thus could add better gains if low dose is take before bed. If 50 mg is too high for a lack of nova/hcg I will happily lower my dose to 25 in the morning. However, have known people to take 25 mg for longer than two weeks without any PCT.

If you have an issue with the anadrol, I can drop it and just dbol, or use a low dose of winny. I just want to avoid much of the later due to the joint issues. On the other hand how much joint issues can happen from winny only on a 2 on/off protocol? If not much than I may just consider this route, and possibly low dose dbol.

Or if you feel that I could run a 10 week equip with low dose test with the AI's I have mentioned and still recover fine without the HCG then please explain.

Both DBol and ADrol can cause gyno...

Firstly find a source for your PCT/Gyno meds...

As I've said above - the 14days on, 14/16/21 days off protocols all used low doses of DBol. 5mg to 10mg...

I'm still trying to figure out how you managed to put your hands on dbol and anadrol and yet you can't figure out how to land a SERM or HCG...

Don't worry I wont start anything until I have a firm plan down first. I don't know how people do it here, I was once told "only the pros need that" when asking about their SERM/HCG use. Frustrating.

Sure, your amateur HPTA doesn't know enough about steroid chemistry to shut down in the face of exogenous androgens but your amateur androgen receptors are going to respond and induce hypertrophy? Make sure your amateur liver gets some love too...

Yeah I didn't bother questioning their logic, all the outcomes seemed negative; deaf ears, no comprehension, or anger. I should have mentioned the guy I recently talked to about how he is going to come off his 8 week sust. cycled (worked his way up using dbol once per day for 4 weeks prior). "You just pyramid, you don't have to worry because the tapering takes care of everything".

Well if I had that type of machismo... I once said I'd never use anadrol, but that was before reading about it. I like the affects on blood and strength. I will be more considerate of my liver as well, alright low dose you say, sorry I was sceptical about the 5-10mg dose you suggested, thats a girls dose but none the less it maybe better than nothing.

What about obtaining a contstant blood supply throughout the two weeks, or is it highly recommended to have it all out before bed? Please post any references to two week cycles if you can, I've tried searching.

He will be shutdown after his Sust cycle... Odds are he will take a couple of weeks off and go back on again... Tapering won't bring his HPTA back in line.

This is the thread with the year long low dose DBol trial: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testost...y-6th-june.html

Its 46 pages long. Doses varied from 5mg to 15mg for 14 to 16 days, time off varied from 14days to 21days. 'PCT' was Trib, Zinc, Creatine

Gains were 16lbs over the year. All of which has been kept without needed to go back on AAS.

I don't think any bloodwork was done on cycle though before anyone starts...

Don't try and stabilise blood levels... It would be easier to tattoo your own back...

From memory taking the DBol about 7am worked best.

You'd need to calculate the dose for Adrol...

The cycle assume your training and diet is good... Without meaning to sound offensive the fact you can't get the neccessary PCT meds does lead me to think you really ought to check everything else is in place and optimum first...

Also... Even though this cycle doesn't neccessitate a standard PCT... You really should have Clomid/Nolva and hCG on hand in case of Gyno and HPTA shutdown...

IMO seems like a lot of trouble for 16lbs. Seems like anyone who has their diet down could put on 1-2 lean lbs a month (12-24lbs a year) and not worry about all this other garbage. (anyone other than a well seasoned bodybuilder)

So you are suggesting you know a method by which lean gains of 12lbs - 24lbs can be made and retained year on year...?

Patent it. Quick. You'll make a fortune.

In all seriousness, most people, unless they are vastly underweight for their frame would struggle to make those kind of continued gains.

While you might dismiss a low dose on/off cycle I'm guessing you have neither tried it, or watched as a study was enacted in the real world. Low dose cycles were the zeitgeist of the asthetic looking 50s/60s/70s BB'ers - 5mg/10mg being common. As I'm sure you well know you don't need a vast amount of gear to grow - but everyone on internet boards will tell you otherwise, as thats what some big guy told another big guy somewhere at somestage...

Well hell if I knew they were the golden era zeitgeist, I wouldn't have said a thing. Reven shouldn't worry about his diet or researching anything just do a low dose cycle and everything will be gravy. He'll look like Arnold in no time...


take your lectures to convention of people who like lectures...

I was just hoping my comments would make him look into his diet and training a little more before jumping into AAS. He obviously is researching and definitely needs to from what I've seen posted above. He's trying to take bits and pieces from several other brotelligent AAS cycle theories and make his own, which obviously is less than stellar. I just figured he's probably doing the same with his training and diet.

Why not just ask him about his diet and training, as opposed to incorrectly suggesting he can make lean gains 24lbs a year...?

What would I know about diets or training? I eat tubs of cookie dough and use a bowflex....

Well rest assured my days of 24 lbs of muscle a year are long gone. If I put on 16 lbs of muscle I'd be in great shape, no I'll never look like Arnold, picture Frank Zane that's my build. Most people my height seem to max out at my weight (usually staying lighter or just getting fat), few football players with similar builds weigh as much as I do unless they are 2" taller.

Sure I could get bigger naturally, but what will happen is I'll gain more fat and lose much of the gains when I go to diet. Yes your right, if I were to optimize my diet and lower my weight slowly at about 1lb or even 1/2lb per week I could maintain more. I might be able to squeeze out 10 lbs of muscle by doing so, I'd probably have to use several supplements offered here while bulking and dieting - the use of E/C would be a must. Slow bulking though summer till next would probably be best.

Yes I have a good physic/genetics for a natural and I have a damn solid base to become a powerlifter, but I will never step on stage or attend a meet. Well the powerlifting aspect has some merit, but it's so damn hard on the body.

So here I am, I figure with sound training and diet protocol, add in the low doses discussed, with E/C plus an avant labs sup I will be in damn good shape this summer. While at the same time helping me for next bulking season due to less of a step back.

Thanks for your input, I'll give much consideration and I'll see about the optimized diet/supplement route.