Just read the article on GH by Robert Durand (M&M magazine). I liked it a quite a bit.

The overall picture I am getting about GH is of "partitioning agent." All those who are interested in achieving very low bf levels while retaining muscle mass may want to check out the article.

It is rather common knowledge that muscle and fat are relatively "coupled." That is, both muscle and fat tend to move as ONE in their response to intake of food. For example, eating may cause muscles to grow, but that always results in spill-over effect on fat cells -- fat cells grow too! Insulin, which causes storage of nutrients, affect both fat and muscle cells.

Based on my understanding of the article, what mainly causes the coupling between muscle and fat to break down is the presence of GH.

All this brings me to this question: Are there any supplements/activities to TRULY increase GH release? Okay, part of the answe is:

(1) intense exercise/sleep
(2) protein intake (from which other metabolites can be derived, such as arginine, leucine, etc.)

Are there other agents, drugs, etc. that can be used?

-------------

P.S. Some time ago, there were posts on using arginine/ornithine to increase the release of GH -- perhaps this topic can be revisited. If arginine/ornithine combination actually worked, its effects should be manifest in terms of fatloss.

Agmatine sulfate is worth looking into,towards this end.

A 1000mg upon rising on an empty stomach with ornithine and a smaller amount of arginine/A-AGK dosed throughout the day.Citrulline Malate would also be good.Below is the writeup on Blueprint i.e.agmatine sulfate.

Captopril (sp?) is another but it has its downsides.

Edit:
BEYOND ARGININE…WAY BEYOND! PART I
New ground breaking nutrient - Agmatine!

By Joey Rodrigues CEO/Founder of MAN Sports Products and Dr. Dana Houser (a.k.a. - dinoiii)


Today I sit here with excitement about a ground-breaking nutrient that I have the pleasure to introduce to the sports nutrition world. Before I begin discussion about what this new ground breaking nutrient Agmatine is and what it means to you, the active lifestyle enthusiast, let me make some things perfectly clear to you right here and right now. As the CEO and Founder of MAN Sports Products and someone just like you that is looking for a safe, effective and legal edge to help me improve my body composition, health and quality of life, I take great pride in running a company that is committed to introducing innovative and result-driven concepts that are supported by science. I know you have heard that type of jibba jabba before from every supplement company representative under the sun, but I am speaking the truth and those of you who are familiar with my company and concepts KNOW THIS MAN!

I also want to let you know that I am simply an individual with a voice that serves as a bridge for you today to information that can lead to improved body composition, health and performance. While this introduction today is very exciting, and very real, I cannot take credit for its invention as is the practice by many Supplement Companies and owners today. You see, I did not invent nor discover Agmatine, but I do want to be the MAN (pun intended) that helps educate you on this truly miraculous nutrient. There are real scientists out there that actually discover these grand innovations, and other pioneers in our industry such as the late great Dan Duchaine, Dr. Dan Gwartney and even Thomas Inclendon that have an intricate knowledge of biochemistry and how this impacts real-life applications. In fact, all these great men have spoken of Agmatine several years ago. But, it was an article written by Dr. Dan Gwartney some 8 years ago that piqued my interest about this ever-so-versatile byproduct of the amino acid Arginine.
What I will take credit for is making it a reality to you the people and again as a source of information that may contribute to your growth. At the risk of sounding like Bill Phillips when he compared the branched chain amino acid, Leucine-metabolite, HMB (B-hydroxy B-methylbutyrate) to the anabolic steroid known as Deca, I am putting my name and street cred on the line by dubbing Agmatine “The Holy Grail of Supplements”. You read correctly and as we get further along into this discussion you may even realize that I’m not that crazy after all.


Fascination of an Industry with a Molecule that holds more Promise than Arginine

As mentioned above, Agmatine ((4-aminobutyl) guanidine, NH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-NH-C(-NH2)(=NH )) is a byproduct of Arginine that is produced through a process called decarboxylation. It is basically Arginine with the carboxylic acid end removed.
Nearly anyone hip to the supplement game is up on Arginine. Many years back, Arginine was heavily promoted by Life Extensionists (most notably, Shaw and Pearson) and sports nutritionists (Dr. Michael Colgan) as a big GH releaser. It has most recently regained popularity as one of the hottest supplements in sports nutrition for its role in the production of Nitric Oxide (NO). Just walk into any sports nutrition store and look at any supplement line and you are bound to see a host of NO products. Supplement companies are pumping Arginine pills out faster than McDonald’s is slanging Happy Meals to toddlers. “Skin bursting pumps,” “enhanced nutrient delivery” and “sheer SIZE” are attributes being heavily touted as a result of Arginine supplementation in various forms. See, Ethyl Ester Mania!

Arginine does have many benefits to both the bodybuilder as well as person seeking general health improvement. Arginine is well documented for its ability to support endogenous production of creatine, stimulation of protein synthesis, insulin sensitivity through attenuation of blood glucose, GH production, and its role in the urea cycle to aid in the removal of nitrogenous waste. It may even have a general health role for those that have suffered from heart failure and/or a heart attack, as well as a potential aid in sexual dysfunction cases, including enhancement of spermatogenesis (sperm production), either as a standalone or in conjunction with synergistic nutrients via its vasodilatory properties. Arginine’s effects truly seem to be unsurpassed.

That is, until now! Agmatine is likely the one molecule to take part in more metabolic processing than Arginine. There are nineteen well-accepted mechanisms of action suggested in the literature and at least thirteen have direct benefits to the bodybuilder and/or health enthusiast with even more effects being discovered literally on a daily basis!


LOCATING AGMATINE

In the body, Agmatine is widely and unevenly distributed. It has been identified in the stomach, aorta, small intestine, large intestine, spleen, lung, vas deferens (of the male genital tract), adrenal gland, kidney, heart, liver, skeletal muscle, the testes, and brain. The concentration of agmatine varies in different parts of these organs. The highest concentrations of which were the stomach, aorta, and small intestine. However, since the enzyme that converts Arginine into Agmatine has not been confirmed in the fundus of the stomach and/or intestine, it has been debated by some that either an independent source of agmatine also exists or that it should be obtained through bacterial colonization or the diet, and absorbed via a specific transporter.

All foods are made up of hundreds of naturally occurring compounds that can have varying effects on us, depending on how much we eat and how sensitive we are. Biogenic amines - like Agmatine - are formed by the breakdown of proteins in foods. Foods like beef, fish, bananas, avocados, mushrooms, chocolate, sauerkraut, and soy sauce are just some that contain Agmatine to varying degrees, though these levels can vary precipitously and drastically alter the amount you are ingesting. The problem is that as we age, it appears that our levels of amines decline. This can have disastrous effects on mental functioning, blood pressure, body temperature, amongst many others we will discuss momentarily.


DID YOU SAY HOLY GRAIL?

Yes we did. And here’s why. The effects of this highly versatile nutrient can be divided into two groups based on the individuals that choose to use it. The athlete or life extensionist, both of which continue to strive for the healthy lifestyle, can expect different effects from agmatine to aid in attaining their goals. The benefits here are not mutually exclusive and therefore you may see the same effects listed for both camps.

Agmatine and The Athlete

1. Agmatine is a pain fighter. This can be beneficial to the athlete in two ways:
(a) It can potentiate the effects of analgesics used during recuperation from injury.
( It has the potential to aid post-workout recovery.
2. Agmatine enhances insulin production leading to better insulin response. This allows for positive effects in attaining body composition goals. Better insulin response means a harder and leaner more muscular body.

3. Agmatine acts on various hypothalamic and pituitary peptide hormones such as LH and GH. These will have subsequent effects on other hormones like IGF-1. Control of the hormonal environment of the athlete and you will perform better, look better and feel better.

4. Agmatine possesses anxiolytic (relieves anxiety) and antidepressant properties offering potential control of cortisol levels in the stressful life of the athlete.

5. Agmatine modulates nitric oxide (NO) through different ways. It stimulates some types of nitric oxide synthase (NOS) while inhibiting others. This is essential to the proper functioning of the polyamine biosynthetic pathways.

6. Agmatine acts on catecholamine (Epinephrine > Norepinephrine > Dopamine) release. These endogenous compounds are part of nearly every action in the body. Most notably for the athlete is the role that this compound would ultimately have in both energy production and aiding anticipation of the stress afforded by competition. However, there are also well-established roles that epinephrine can have on the body that includes: increasing endurance, enhancing performance, and decreasing body fat.

7. Agmatine has an antioxidant role. There can be no greater source of free-radical build up than that seen in the day-to-day activity of the athlete. The sheer stress that the body takes on when in you’re an athlete in the trenches (i.e. – the gym, the field, etc…) could ultimately have significant detrimental effects with continued build up. Agmatine can offer protection from the undesired effects that free radicals can have on the body.

8. For the athlete desiring body composition change, Agmatine has an independent role of insulin and testosterone management on lipid (fat) metabolism.

9. Agmatine possesses nootropic effects (it acts as a “novel” neurotransmitter). This can offer the athlete a potential mental edge to prepare for various events.

10. Agmatine can aid in kidney function by stimulating the glomerular filtration rate (GFR). This can bode the bodybuilder well as various nitrogenous waste products are removed through this system.

11. Agmatine harbors a hypotensive role which could assist the exogenously-enhanced athlete in keeping blood pressure in check.


Agmatine and The Life Extensionist

1. Agmatine has a neuroprotective role. The life extensionist will likely see this as a positive effect in cases of such chronic diseases as Alzheimer’s Dementia. This is thought to originate through a couple of mechanisms, but most notably its prevention of over-excitation by glutamate and its antioxidant roles.

2. Agmatine can assist in chronic pain management. Sufferers of things such as chronic degenerative diseases that do not get adequate relief from various pharmaceutical analgesic agents may see agmatine as the ideal adjunct to their current treatment.

3. Agmatine’s antioxidant role has significant impact on one of the unifying themes of aging in oxidative stress accumulation and its contribution to the aging individual.

4. Agmatine may possess a role in cancer prevention via its modulation of all polyamine biosynthetic pathways. This effect may be limited to vascular growths via smooth muscle cell overgrowth. Control of cell growth can be attributed to two different pathways:

* A membrane receptor controlled pathway
* A pathway dependent on cellular polyamine content

5. As mentioned earlier, agmatine imparts action on various hypothalamic and pituitary peptide hormones such as LH and GH. Control of the hormonal environment of the anti-aging medicine enthusiast can point rather quickly at the positive effects this can have.

6. Agmatine can aid in kidney function by stimulating the glomerular filtration rate (GFR) which can positively impact those suffering from chronic kidney diseases.

7. Agmatine enhances insulin production leading to better insulin response. As we grow older this impacts glycation. Glycation is the process where sugars attach to blood proteins and results in a complex series of rearrangements and oxidative reactions leading to advanced glycation end-products (AGEs). It is this complex series of events that agmatine hits at its core and could prove synergistic with other molecules (i.e. – carnosine) in our fight to remain young.

8. Agmatine’s hypotensive role has implications here as our continued assurance of fending off the cardiovascular sequelae that offer the deleterious effects of metabolic derangements such as the virtually epidemic diabetes and obesity run rampant.


The Bottom Line

Even our most devout supporters thought we were off our rocker when we were so bold as to anoint Agmatine as the “Holy Grail of Supplements”. And rightfully so. It is the sad truth that as a consumer (we include ourselves in this list) that you have been burned more often than not by supplement companies and their grand innovations. The likes of smilax, boron, chromium picolinate, all-in-one products, as well as far too many others to list have left you snubbed and short on coin. This brief introductory article into the Who, What, When, Where and Why of Agmatine should serve at the very least as some merit to our claims and interest in a fascinating new nutrient that may even make Arginine supplementation obsolete.

In part two, Dana Houser MD, MHSA (dinoiii), Shawn D. Wells MPH, RD (Androgenic) and Joey Rodrigues CEO/Founder of MAN Sports Products Inc. will take part in a round table discussion that will take a deeper look into Agmatine. We will elaborate on mechanisms of actions/effects and what that means to you. We will also provide real world feedback from our own personal experiences using Agmatine and provide recommendations on how to implement its use on a daily basis along with what supplements/products can be used in conjunction with Agmatine. Until then, we wish you the best in your quest for improved body composition, health and quality of life.


SCIENTIFIC REFERENCES

1. Abe K, Abe Y, and Saito H. Agmatine suppresses nitric oxide production in microglia. Brain Res. 872: 141-148, 2000.

2. Aricioglu-Kartal F, and Regunathan S. Effect of chronic morphine treatment on the biosynthesis of agmatine in rat brain and other tissues. Life Sci. 71: 1695-1701, 2002.

3. Gao, Y., et al. Agmatine: a novel vasodilator substance. Life Sciences. 57(8):PL83-86, 1995.

4. Halaris A, Piletz JE. Imidazoline receptors: possible involvement in the pathophysiology and treatment of depression. Hum Psychopharmacol. 16(1):65-69, 2001.

5. Kalra, S.P., et al. Agmatine, a novel hypothalamic amine, stimulates pituitary luteinizing hormone release in vivo and hypothalamic luteinizing hormone-releasing in vivo. Neuroscience Letters. 194 (3): July 21, 1995; 165-168.

6. Kawabata T, Ohshima H, Ino M. Occurrence of methylguanidine and agmatine in foods. IARC Sci Publ. (19):415-23, 1978.

7. Lortie, M.J., et al. Agmatine, a bioactive metabolite of arginine. Production, degradation, and functional effects in the kidney of the rat. Journal of Clinical Investigation. 97(2):413-420, 1996.

8. Morgan, N.G., et al. Characterization of the imidazoline binding site in regulation of insulin secretion. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. 763:361-373, 1995.

9. Nishimura K, Shiina R, Kashiwagi K, and Igarashi K. Decrease in Polyamines with Aging and Their Ingestion from Food and Drink. J of Biochem. 139(1):81-90, 2006.

10. Raasch, W. et al. Agmatine, the bacterial amine is widely distributed in mammalian tissues. Life Sciences. 56(26):2319-2330, 1995.

11. Raghavan SA, Dikshit M. Vascular regulation by the L-arginine metabolites, nitric oxide and agmatine. Pharmacol Res. 49(5):397-414. Review, 2004.

12. Regunathan S, Feinstein DL, and Reis DJ. Anti-proliferative and anti-inflammatory actions of imidazoline agents. Are imidazoline receptors involved? Ann NY Acad Sci. 881: 410-419, 1999.

13. Regunathan S, and Reis DJ. Characteristics of arginine decarboxylase in rat brain and liver: distinction from ornithine decarboxylase. J Neurochem. 74: 2201-2208, 2000.

14. Reis DJ, and Regunathan S. Agmatine a novel neurotransmitter? Advances in Pharmacology. 42:645-649, 1998.

15. Schwartz D, Peterson OW, Mendonca M, Satriano J, Lortie M, and Blantz RC. Agmatine effects glomerular filtration rate via a nitric oxide synthase-dependent mechanism. Am J Renal Physiol. 272: F597-F601, 1997.

16. Sener A, et al. Stimulus-secretion coupling of arginine-induced insulin release. Insulinotropic action of agmatine. Biochemical Pharmacology. January 15, 1989. 38(2):327-330, 1989.

17. Tabor CW, and Tabor H. Polyamines. Ann Rev Biochem. 53: 749-790, 1984.

18. Vargiu C, Cabella C, Belliardo S, Cravanzola C, Grillo MA and Colombatto S. Agmatine modulates polyamine content in hepatocytes by inducing spermidine/spermine acetyltransferase. Eur. J Biochem. 259: 933-938, 1999.

19. Weitzel G., et al. Insulin-like partial effects of agmatine derivatives in adipocytes. Hoppe-Seylers Zeitschrift fur Physiologische Chemie. 361(1):51-60, 1980.

20. Yananli H, Goren MZ, Berkman K, Aricioglu F. Effect of agmatine on brain l-citrulline production during morphine withdrawal in rats: A microdialysis study in nucleus accumbens. Brain Res. 2007 Feb 9;1132(1):51-58, 2006.

21. Zarandi M, Serfozo P, Zsigo J, Deutch AH, Janaky T, Olsen DB, Bajusz S, Schally AV. Potent agonists of growth hormone-releasing hormone. II. Pept Res. 5(4):190-3, 1992.

lots of pharmaceuticals cause GH release....in (general) order of efficacy:

GHRP-6
hexarelin
clonidine (brand name catapres)
GHB
GABA
baclofen (common Rx pain reliever)
arginine + ornithine

and then there are the compounds that are really hard to find like MK-377 (i think that's right) which is an potent oral secretagogue. only one underground joint had them, and i think they are shut down now.

problem with many of these is that the stronger ones cause a lot of drowsiness...one of the reasons i havent been able to explore GH releasing compounds fully - i cant find one for the morning! i could just use GH i guess, but the cost is so unholy nowadays, and the effects are so slow to materialize that i cant rationalize it.

Purely enecdotal feedback: if you are going to base efficacy of a product on drowsiness or other anecdeotal responses then you guys should consider looking at USPLabs PureDopa.

Within days my skin and face has a glow and my the slight wrinkles (crows feet) around my eyes/temples seem smoother and less visible.

Within a short period of time after dosing the drowsiness does occur. Most benefitial for night time and quality sleep. At higher doses I get vivid dreams and much more restful and restorative sleep in the same little sleep I do get.

This obvioulsy is not desireable in the AM, but if taken pre-cardio and with the stim of choice it seems to increase cardio efficacy, producing a noticeable leaner physique is a short time when dieting. Anecdotally when taken in the AM without stims it does produce drowsiness.

EDIT: forgot to mention increased rate of hair growth (noticeably on my head) as well finger nail growth.

can't find the said product on online nutrition stores nor on USP Labs web site.

Do you have a link?
Thanks

PureDopa (1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol)


http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/nutrapl...-100-grams.html

USPLabs PowerFULL will also work.

I see...

I guess, based on your feedback, you would rate this much higher than USP Labs POWERFULL (which I like a lot and think it is definitely doing something for me -though cannot be sure what it does exactly at a biochemical level as I never did bloodwork with vs without it)

How come there is so little discussion on this on forums? GH upregulators are a very hot topic and it looks like half of the bodybuilding crowd is searching for ways to increase GH secretion. Is this very new by any chance?

Anyone else with feedback on this?

Sleep, arginine, and heavy release of GH seem correlated.

For instance, I noticed that after I really work out with high intensity, about 1-2 hours later, I am incredibly drowsy -- the drowsiness is different from what I feel when I need sleep at night. I would guess (based on Durand's article) that GH release probably occurs.

Also, consider the fact that GH is release is known to be stimulated by administration of arginine. Again, GH release is to occur when one is asleep. Notice that arginine signals an intense exercise session. This makes sense, because greater the pump, greater the indication that one's body is unable to meet the metabolic needs of local muscle tissue. Thus, there is greater need for adaptation. It makes sense that the body will release GH to adapt. It makes sense that the amount of plasma arginine during exercise potentiates GH release.

In summary, one can probably increase the release of GH via arginine administration, intense exercise, and good sleep. Following this line of thought, of course, citrulline malate probably will help (as Colin indicated above). Probably should check out agmatine.

when and how much Arginine should one take?
always empty stomach I assume?

Thanks

The two actives in PowerFull are PureDopa and PurSap.

This bonus of having them in seperate actives is as follows:

The PureDope being a GH releaser needs to be comsumed on as close to an empty stomach as you can and for sure in an insulin free environment.

So much consideration need be given to nutrition and its timing when dosing it. If you fail to meet the required environment you really don't benefit from the GH of the PureDopa but...this does not have the same effect on the PureSap. The PureSap is not effected by the nutrient or meal timing. So having them seperate has allowed some to benefit from both the PureDopa and PureSap independently.

So the PureSap can be dosed throughout the day irrespective of meal timing. The PureDopa can be dosed prior to empty stomach (or at least insulin free environment) cardio and empty (or at least insulin free environment) stomach and (at a bit larger dose) pre bed.

I do it just like that...FWIW

Does insulin interfere with GH signaling?

If insulin potentiates GH, then, arginine probably should be taken with other protein/amino acids. Not sure.

----------

As for PureDopa, this is about stimulating dopamine receptors. I don't really know the link between GH release and DA or dopamine receptors. WHY would stimulating dopamine receptors cause GH release?

Melatonin

Nassar E, Mulligan C, Taylor L, Kerksick C, Galbreath M, Greenwood M, & Willoughby D. Effects
of prophylactic N-Acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine (melatonin) supplementation and resistance
exercise on serum growth hormone levels and the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis in young
males and females. Exercise & Biochemical Nutrition Laboratory, Baylor University, Waco, TX
76798-7313.
Purpose: Melatonin and resistance exercise alone have been shown to increase the levels of free
growth hormone (GH). The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of the ingestion of a
single dose of melatonin and heavy resistance exercise on the levels of serum free GH and other
hormones constituting the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis. Methods: Physically active males (n
= 30) and females (n = 30) were randomly assigned to ingest either a N-Acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine
(melatonin) supplement at 0.5 or 5.0 mg, or 1.0 mg of a dextrose placebo. After a light breakfast,
participants reported 4 hours later and then underwent a baseline blood sample. Participants then
ingested the supplement and underwent blood sampling every 15 min for 60 min, at which point they
underwent a single bout of resistance exercise with the bilateral leg press for 7 sets of 7 reps at 85% 1-
RM. After exercise, participants provided additional blood samples every 15 min for a total of 120
min. Serum free GH, IGF-1, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-3, and cortisol were determined with ELISA. Data
were evaluated as the peak pre- and post-exercise values subtracted from baseline values and then
analyzed with separate two-way ANOVA (p < 0.05). Results: For GH in males, 5.0 mg melatonin
was significantly greater than placebo prior to exercise (p = 0.017), whereas both 0.5 and 5.0 mg
melatonin were greater than placebo after exercise (p = 0.045). No significant differences occurred for
IGF-1; however, males were shown to have higher levels of IGFBP-1, independent of supplementation
(p = 0.004). The 5.0 mg melatonin dose resulted in higher IGFBP-3 in males (p = 0.017); however,
females had a higher cortisol response in the 0.5 mg group during the post-exercise period (p = 0.024).
Conclusion: In conclusion, for males the 5.0 mg melatonin dose appears to increase serum GH levels;
however, when combined with resistance exercise both 0.5 and 5.0 mg melatonin doses appear to have
a positive effect on serum GH levels. Supported by a research grant from Iovate Health Sciences.

Cheaper than <that other mystery product> too.

I'm doubtful of USP products,given their mysterious naming/labeling and outlandish claims.

Relevant abstracts taken from the Inner Circle,the first being proof that oral GABA actually works:





Looks like it would be best dosed during or post WO.


Long Term N-Acetylcysteine and L-Arginine Administration Reduces Endothelial Activation and Systolic Blood Pressure in Hypertensive Patients with Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus.

Martina V, Masha A, Gigliardi VR, Brocato L, Manzato E, Berchio A, Massarenti P, Settanni F, Della Casa L, Bergamini S, Iannone A.

From the Department of Internal Medicine, University of Torino, Torino.

Objective: Reactive oxygen and nitric oxide (NO) have recently been considered involved in the cardiovascular complications of patients with type 2 diabetes as NO is supposed to loose its physiological beneficial effects, due to the presence of oxygen radicals. For this reason, we tested the effects of L-arginine (ARG) and N-acetylcisteine (NAC) administration to increase the NO bioavailability by reducing the free radical formation. Research Design and Methods: A double-blind study was performed on 24 male patients with type 2 diabetes and hypertension, divided in 2 groups of 12 patients, which received randomly an oral supplementation of placebo or NAC+ARG, for six months. Results: The NAC+ARG treatment caused a reduction of the mean arterial blood pressure, both systolic (p<0.05) and diastolic (p<0.05), total-cholesterol (p<0.01), LDL-cholesterol (p<0.005), oxidized-LDL (p<0.05), hs CRP (p<0.05), ICAM (p<0.05), VCAM (p<0.01), nitrotyrosine (p<0.01), fibrinogen (p<0.01), PAI-1 (p<0.05) and intima-media thickness (p<0.02) during endothelial post-ischemic vasodilation. The HDL-cholesterol level increased (p<0.05). No changes in others parameters studied were observed. Conclusions: The NAC+ARG administration seems to be a potential well-tolerated antiatherogenic therapy since it improves the endothelial function in hypertensive patients with type 2 diabetes by improving NO bioavailability via reduction of the oxidative stress and increase of NO production. Our study's results give prominence to its potential use in the primary and secondary cardiovascular prevention in these patients.

PMID: 18268065 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

You also may want to consider the fact that at a more youthful age levels of natural GH are already normal to high. For older folks like myself the effects may be noticed more because of the fact that as we age they decrease. So stimulation may be minimal, in some that minimal amount may be two fold (just tossing that number) to their baseline. Where as in someone younger their endogenous (just using that word to suggest natural) levels may be well enough on their own that it is insignicant. In that case maybe synthetic/pharma at supraphysiological is the only route that will achieve anything that resembles the desire result.

Just a thought.

I will admit that I have limited understanding regarding brain chemistry, GH stimulation, insulin signals and all.

But like I said before:

Improved skin texture, color and glow within a couple days.
Improved restorative sleep immediately following nightly dose.
Increased rate of nail growth.
Increased rate of hair growth, sheen, and texture.
Increased efficacy of cardio for fat loss.

You can be as skeptical about it all you want to be and I completely understand why. We can go around and around of whether or not this does that, dopamine and GH, etc.,etc., but it IS producing the characteristics desired from a GH stimulating product. There is no doubt that these GH like benefits, though not conclusive(ly) by what mechanism or active, are being produced by my consumption of PureDopa.

I'll leave the debate of efficacy of the product to you guys and I'll reep the benefits of the use of it.

Disclaimer...I am not affilated with, sponsored or compensated by USPLabs. I just use the product(s) and it(they) are doing what they claim.

I never said what you experienced was not true. I merely said that I don't understand the mechanism, that is all.

Any thoughts on how to dose a high enough shot of GABA without the crazy tingle/cardiac arrest feeling?

David,

Rushed for time when I posted and may have miscommunicated a tone that was not intended. Sorry if it put you off. Seriously.

Yeah, I don't know the mechanism either. But I do encourage you to consider at least looking into trying it out. At $20 for 100g bulk powder it is rather inexpensive for a 30 days worth of a personal trial of it. I am pleased that I did.

Maybe dexterium would like to support his product claims with some more detailed information regarding mechanism. They are an M&M board sponsor so I don't see how this is realy unreasonable an expectation. Like I mentioned before I am not a rep and far from qualified to speak for someone else products. I am just a satisfied customer.

It's good to hear from you.

Brian

Revised to read:

I can completely understand the skepticism. It would be interesting to further explore the mechanism by which this product is indeed producing the results that I am experiencing for myself. I cannot discount the fact that upon my use of this product I have indeed experienced what it claims to do.

Blueprint's (agmatine) label says to take it in the morning. Shouldn't it be taken before bed?

Thanks Brian. I will give it a go.

This is very interesting topic in itself.

Regul Pept. 1990 Oct 29;31(1):53-64.

Insulin-induced hypoglycemia, L-dopa and arginine stimulate GH secretion through different mechanisms in man.Masuda A, Shibasaki T, Hotta M, Yamauchi N, Ling N, Demura H, Shizume K.
Department of Medicine, Tokyo Women's Medical College, Japan.

We sought to clarify the mechanisms of growth hormone (GH) secretion induced by insulin hypoglycemia, L-dopa, and arginine in man. The secretion of GH as measured by increased plasma level, in response to oral administration of 500 mg L-dopa or 30 min-infusion of arginine, was not modified by prior intravenous administration of 200 micrograms GH-releasing hormone (GHRH). It was, however, completely blocked by preadministered 50 micrograms SMS201-995, a long-acting somatostatin (SRIH) analog. GH release with 200 micrograms GHRH was completely blocked by 100 micrograms SMS201-995. GH secretion caused by insulin-induced hypoglycemia was significantly reduced but still present after administration of 100 micrograms of the analog. These results suggest that a suppression of SRIH release may be partially involved in the stimulatory mechanism of GH secretion by L-dopa. Coadministration of GHRH accentuated the stimulatory effect of arginine on GH secretion. Arginine significantly raised plasma TSH levels. These findings suggest that arginine suppresses SRIH release from the hypothalamus to cause GH secretion because SRIH suppresses TSH secretion. It is also suggested that some factor (or factors) other than GHRH and SRIH are involved in the mechanism by which insulin-induced hypoglycemia stimulates GH secretion, because the effect of insulin was not fully blocked in the presence of SRIH analog. Thus all the tests for GH release appear to act via different mechanisms.

Hard to say, without understanding the mechanisms. Sadly, at this point, the best way to find out is by experiment, as I have not been able to find any useful information.

Consider arginine and levodopa (which is in PureDopa). On one hand, because the prersence of arginine is likely to signal severe exercise condition, my guess is that the best time to take arginine is just before exercise. The arginine administration and exercise should ptentiate the release of GH, later at night when one is sleeping (when 70% of GH release takes place). On the other hand, levodopa probably works by a different pathway. I believe this has more to do with dopamine receptor stimulation. It makes sense that one would take this 30 minutes before sleeping, to directly stimulate GH release.

Between argining and levodopa, which is agmatine more like? Perhaps neither?

Dr. Houser had this to offer,WRT my query of Blueprint dosing.

FWIW,I think he had a large role in bringing Blueprint to the market and if this the case,he could offer some good discussion on agmatine.

He has a subforum ,Ask Dr.Houser",on leanbulk:

The l-dopa seems be something that is one of the primary actives in this product as well. There are very very few users so the feedback at AM, FWIW, is very limited.

Personally it would be cost deffective for me. I have always been a raw active material bulk powder guy who could not fathom paying OTC prices for anything anymore

http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/applied...aps-700-mg.html

By using better forms that are actually effective enough to make it through the BBB without creating a negative bodyload of GABA.

I would suggest Picamilon.

Straight L-DOPA is available for this purpose at a known dose.

http://customnutritionwarehouse.com/ldopa-grams-p-1428.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/uniq/ldopapowder.html

Thanks for the reply Steve. Any suggestions on what to do with the GABA bulk powder I have besides sweeten my cheerio's with it?

I seriously can't take that rush of panicy/numbness around my lungs and heart.

I've never touched it as theanine, picamilon, hell even GHB is better studied lol.

do you have studies showing a large increase in GH after administration of picamilon?

if not, then i dont understand your suggestion.

this is actually VERY important, as arginine taken pre-WO has an entirely different effect than arginine post-WO....i recall comparing the pubmed studies last year. anyone want to do some legwork? i believe ornithine was used in at least one of them, also.

Funny this came up as I was putting together a cheap GH stack for fun and arginine is part of it.

There is a study in the IC posted by fitnecise stating that arginine pre WO actually inhibits GH release caused by exercise by 100% (along exercise stimulates GH release by 3-500% resting levels. W/ arginine it only raises to 200% of resting).

Resting administration of arginine resulted in 300% GH release above baseline. I have been dosing morning and evening doses - 3-5g each time. I just started this regimen.

GABA is on my stack list but I seriously can't take the feeling of the high dose required to stimulate GH release. I am open to suggestions on how to get past this.

Our products work.

Was that GH release at sleep or during exercise (or just after exercise)? (I don't have access to IC).

It is the GH spike during sleep that we care about.

All this is counter-intuitive to me.

Don't have the full text so I'm not sure what they are considering "rest" which is their term, not mine.

Dose it in the evenings and you're golden.

Why would this be counter-intuitive sir?

with an explination like this, who could doubt you?

For example, a poster (thebrakes) above indicated that arginine has a different effect when it is taken during exercise or at night. Whether one takes it during a fast or during fed-state.

(1) Meal timing -- when one considers this in light of GH production, meal timing may matter.

If you eat in the early evening, by the time you fall asleep, your body is ready to produce GH, which has a nutrient partitioning effect on one's body. If you eat very late, the body's GH production may be blunted (due to the presence of insulin). Without GH, one would lose muscle mass and gain fat.

(2) sleeping. If one doesn't sleep (or pull too many all-nighters), one's GH response will become blunted. This should contribute to gaining fat mass and losing muscle. Cortisol probably accelerates this process.

(1)a But wouldn't you just resume GH production after your last meal was digested? arginine itself is suggested to be taken with food. In many bulking circles (see DC training, westside, etc..) it's suggested you eat before bed and some times wake up and have a meal. This doesn't coinside with your GH release on an empty stomach equal muscle sparing.

(1)b Either way a simple experiment could lead you to a semi-accurate conclusion on which dosing is proper for arginine. I wouldn't consider this counter-intuitive....

(2) Not sure where this came from, but I agree.


WRT your first response - Aye, this is the discussion and the results of the study reflect this. We've seen evidence that arginine before the WO is counter productive and at night is ideal. Now we need to find the answer to fed state or not.

Good discussion.

I would guess no, because, in each GH producing session, there is the maximum amount one can produce. Basically, on the GH "resume day," you would not be able to produce that was deferred from the last session, because you are already maxing out.


I think this is a different issue. Insulin has an anagolic effect (or anti-catabolic effect on muscle) and promotes fat storage. So, eating all the time doesn't hurt for anabolism.

I believe energy partitioning, which involves, GH is a different matter. For this, I think a body needs a time window (within a 24 hr period) when resting insulin level goes way down. This window is not long enough for significant catabolism to occur.

I meant in the same evening. You're suggesting that just because I eat before bed my GH production is somehow going to be hindered. I'm suggesting that it will resume as normal after the food is digested. GH being useful for nutrient partitioning would also require a nutrient in the first place to partition. I can't say I've heard evidence saying GH release requires an empty stomach. Do you have some reading you could suggest on this matter?

As far as maxing out goes - the topic is increasing that GH production or 'threashold' as you seem to depict here by 300% while resting. That's the whole point of supplementing the arginine etc... in the first place. I think some miscommunication is coming into play here.





So insulin resistance has a part in GH production? Insulin would typically drop at night while sleeping which would spark the release of GH. As you said we're interested in only the night time release of GH. You make is sound here as if insulin were a growth hormone antagonist... Maybe I'm taking this wrong. Insulin-Like Growth Factor comes into mind if this is the argument you're forming.

Either way - simply creating the lowest insulin response possible with your night time meal would solve this problem.

Here is the full text of the two,taken from the Inner Circle.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...ost&id=5470

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.p...ost&id=5471

During sleep, digestion slows down or is suspended. I think unless the food clears the digestive tract to certain extent, Gh production is suppressed. I think there is a good chance that when one wakes up, there is still undigested food in the tract.


Agreed. But it seems to me that GH does its magic after the blood sugar level drops to normal (e.g., after some food is "stored").


I am quite new about this. I have picked up an article here or there, but nothing worth citing as a reliable source.


What I meant is the following. Let us say the max = 500% of resting GH. If digesting food causes you to release only 200%, then, later, you will need to produce 700% to make up for that. But this is not possible, because one is capped at 500%.


I am not so sure what you mean. I do remember seeing abstracts that say in diabetics, GH release is suppressed. This makes sense -- Insulin resistance implies higher plasma insulin. This means lower GH production.


That is because 70% of the GH production occurs when you sleep.


I think GH and insulin releases are "supposed" to be in sequence. To properly potentiate GH release, one should eat and wait until digestion finishes. This causes nutrients to be stored and facilitates DA receptor signaling. Note that levodopa causes GH to be released during sleep.


I don't think it has to be the "lowest." Just low "enough."

Ha -- I seriously just Googled that, thinking it was some new technical term that I was unfamiliar with. Damn I should sleep more.

Picamilon is GABA bound to another compound that actually makes it into the brain effectively. GABA has litte BBB penetration and is far less researched than Picamilon. Very few studies are done on GABA or Picamilon showing an effect on HGH release. Personally I think GABA is a waste.

Just wanted to note a couple of things.

First, I think I was incorrect about GH and eating. My current idea is that GH kicks in for all events that require nutrient partitoning. Thus, exercise will stimulate its production. If you FAST, this kicks in GH production, because one needs greater partitioning in order to preserve LBM. When one has surplus calories, such partitioning is not needed, because there is enough calories for all cells. Thus, my statement that higher level energy store amplifies GH production is probably completely wrong.

Second, I think the reason why LEVODOPA promotes GH production is, I speculate, due to its clearance. When one intakes the dopamine agonist, this signals to the body that there is plenty of energy. But as the dopamine agonist clears, this signals the need to repartition energy, as its clearance indicates diminising energy availability. I think arginine taken at night works via similar mechanism.

Thanks again for the discussion and the above post. I'd like to hear you elaborate on your theory and maybe if you have time point me to some interesting reading that helped you derive your theory.

that's nice, except:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1809101...Pubmed_RVDocSum

i dont know where you get your data, but this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study is pretty hard to argue with.