I've never had a problem with gyno, never until this past December / January that is. I ran a 4 week cycle of ActivaTe, a natural test booster. It worked very well; I definitely felt that "high testosterone" feeling after the first couple weeks. I must be exceptionally prone to gyno, though, since that's also when it made its initial appearance. It got worse through the end of the cycle, and continued to get worse in the weeks afterwards. The extra testosterone must have led to an increase in estrogen as well, since I wasn't running an AI at the time. I was actually completely unprepared for the possibility of gyno showing up, since I hadn't heard of a natural test booster causing it before. Live and learn, I suppose.

Over the past 2 months, I've taken increasingly harsh measures in attempts to eliminate the problem. On a daily basis, I've been taking 20 mg tamoxifen, 60 mg raloxifene, 25 mg clomiphene, 400 mg B6. I started letro and worked my way up to 2.5 mg/day, which I continued for 5 weeks. The joint pain eventually got to be too bad, so I switched to aromasin at 12.5 mg/day as a less harsh AI. I'm also taking cabergoline at 0.25 mg every 3 days (any more than that and I get side effects, nausea, etc).

After all this, the gyno has shown some signs of improvement. At its worst point, it looked like I had little 12 year old girl titties hanging off my pecs. Ugh. My nipples were huge, and the whole area around the nipples got to be conical and pointy. Now it's slightly unpredictable as to whether or not it's even noticeable. After a workout, or if the nips are cold, there's no sign of gyno whatsoever. In a hot shower, under the covers in bed at night, any time the nips are warm, that's when the titties come out to play. At its worst right now, I'd say they're about 50% smaller than they were a couple months ago. At its best, it's not even noticeable. Of course it doesn't stay at its best all the time.

I've also been cutting over the past couple months. I've cut my overall calories and cleaned up my diet considerably while keeping protein intake high. I used to be able to stay lean with a shitty diet, as long as I trained hard. Not so anymore, now that I'm in my 30s. I had gotten kinda fat at 6'3", 230 pounds, with a 41 inch waist. I've been training hard all along, but all the years of fast food, sugary sodas, daily beer drinking, etc. finally caught up with me. In the past couple months I've cut out all the fast food and sodas along with most of the alcohol. Now it's just a glass or two of wine on a Friday or Saturday instead of several beers a night 7 nights a week.

Anyway, after much consideration, I've decided to do a 4 week cycle of Havoc (20 mg/day) in an attempt to get rid of the gyno completely. Also, I'd like to continue cutting fat while building muscle too. I figure I'll be lean, strong, and gyno-free by summer. If not, then I'll be lean and strong when I get the surgery done. I'll get the surgery done in July or August if the gyno's still around. Hopefully not. I also consider this to be the LAST cutting cycle I'll ever do. I want my abs back; once I get them back I'm keeping them for good. No more relapses into the fast food / junk food / daily alcohol lifestyle. I'm going to get lean and stay lean for good this time.

So, this is the 4 week cycle I'm starting as of right now.

Havoc - 20 mg/day
raloxifene - 60 mg/day (continued from before)
cabergoline - 0.25 mg every 3 days
B6 - 400 mg/day (not sure if this is even doing anything)
aromasin - 12.5 mg/day (I might lower this a little)
Lipoderm-Y with clen (one week at a time, alternated with one week of Napalm with no clen) - applied to my abs / love handles only
HEAT - 3 caps / day (continued from before)
sesamin - 1/2 tsp / day (continued from before)
plus all my usual supps, fish oil, lecithin, multi, GTE, etc.

For PCT, I'll continue the raloxifene and aromasin and add back in the tamoxifen / clomiphene. This is my second PH / AAS cycle, by the way. I did 4 weeks of 4-AD / 1-test back in 2004. I saw tremendous results at the time, and I kept all my strength gains from that cycle.

For diet, I'm going to up the calories just a tad compared to recent weeks. Not too much, since I still have some fat to lose. I'm getting at least 1 g protein per pound of body weight, usually a little bit more than that. I've been keeping carbs low in general, and sticking to the healthier sorts of fats. I'm also eliminating alcohol completely whilst on Havoc.

For training, this is my current schedule. I've upped the cardio quite a bit in the past couple months, and I've made great progress so far when it comes to fat loss.

Sunday - leg workout (lighter weight / higher volume) followed by 20 minutes of cardio
Monday - ab / lower back / core workout, followed by 40 to 60 minutes of cardio
Tuesday - upper body workout (heavy weight / lower volume)
Wednesday - ab / lower back / core workout, followed by 40 to 60 minutes of cardio
Thursday - leg workout (heavy weight / lower volume) followed by 20 minutes of cardio
Friday - ab / lower back / core workout, followed by 40 to 60 minutes of cardio
Saturday - upper body workout (lighter weight / higher volume)

Here I am last Monday (3/24). I don't have earlier pics, but I've made tons of progress compared to before. My waist here is 39" (down from 41"), and my weight is 222 down from 230. It's hard to see any gyno in these pics, but trust me when I say it's there. Sometimes. When I take my shirt off in the cool air, it tends to go away for a little while.

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Here I am tonight (3/29). These are my last pre-Havoc pics. My waist here is 38", and my weight is 220.

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I'd drop the B6, and also make sure you are getting enough saturated and monounsaturated fats (eggs, olive oil, etc...). Hope it goes well.

Also, may want to consider tapering the anti-estrogens at the end, as opposed to just altogether ceasing use.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if the B6 was helping at all. I'm guessing there's no need for it with the cabergoline keeping prolactin under control, but I figured it couldn't hurt. I guess I'll drop it. Tapering the anti-estrogens sounds like a good idea too.

I've been trying to get a good mix of saturated and unsaturated fat, whole eggs, olive oil, fish oil, cottage cheese / milk, lean beef and chicken. I've been eating smaller meals in terms of whole foods, but supplementing with whey protein (~100 grams a day) to keep my protein intake high while cutting some of the carbs and fat. I figure I'll be able to slightly increase my whole food intake (keeping it healthy) during the cycle while still burning fat. I don't know my current body fat percentage, but I'd like to get down to 10% or so eventually. I have a long way to go before I get there.

Since this gyno is relatively "fresh," your chances for success should be okay.

I would stick to aromasin, as the nonsteroidals (letro) have been linked to aromatase upregulation.

Nightop -- why no b6? I figure it's unnecessary with the caber, but other than that a decent idea to keep dopamine levels / prolactin in checked.

I'm not sure about the sesamin -- although many around here recommend it, I can't imagine it playing a significant role other than some Prl stimulation IIRC.

I would definitely recommend AGAINST havoc. AFAIK, nobody has seen positive results, I didn't get anything good (WRT gyno) out of 2 different 3-week cycles, and in the second it appear to exacerbate my gyno juts a tad (confirmed by an increase in caliper measurement, despite a caloric deficit and appropriate drop in supriliac caliper measurement).

An androgen is a good idea, though, and DHT seems to have the most support from the literature. Test + strong AI might work also, though.

Good luck!

Yooooo Big T...I've got a relevant question for you and thought it better to post here than PM as others would find the answer helpful as well.

I recall you posting that caffiene should be eliminated whilst undertaking a gyno reduction cycle and wanted to know just how detrimental caffiene usage would be,if all other cards are being played with a stronghand e.g.topical fat burner,strong androgen stack such as masteron and proviron with low dose clomid (25mg) as PCT for several months,if not indefinitely.Bromo,,bezafibrate,sesamin,fish oil,CLA and NO modulation would also be in the mix,I'm probably leaving sopme secondary players out but you get the gist regardless.

I find that my work capacity is greatly diminished if I don't use caffiene to the tune of 600-800mg per day 6 days weekly with a day off of stimulants on Sunday.I don't expect you to to put forth a time consuming reply and wouldn't want you to do so,just a it of explanation as to why this may be a problem would be much appreciated.

The drop the B6 comment stems from my opinion that the connection between B6 supplementation and increased DA w/ decreased prolactin is unfortunately very linear and erroneous reasoning. I say this for a number of reasons. Namely, at face value aromatic l-amino acid decarboxylase is not the rate limiting step in DA synthesis -- so I doubt B6 would have a big impact on DA levels unless you are super deficient, B6 plays a role in numerous other neurotransmitter synthesis contexts, including 5HT (also via aromatic l-amino acid decarboxylase), and in fact there is some evidence that a deficiency in B6 will decrease prolactin levels due to decreased 5HT activity in the hypothalamus. Furthermore, the transmitter signaling, its response to supplements, and the interplay with endocrine regulation is absurdly complex and well-regulated -- to say that B6 ---> increased DA is basically an empty statement without specifying the specific brain regions and neurocircuitry involved, and their roles in mediating the end net effect (i.e. decreased serum prolactin levels). Its not that I think B6 will do any harm, its just that I think its a false safety blanket WRT DA and prolactin. Personally, I prefer l-theanine for generalized DA-support if you just have to use something. Be careful with the dose of cabergoline though, its quite possible to over titrate to the point of decreasing androgen levels, btw.

Colin-- The caffeine is not going to be that big a deal, although your intake is a pretty high amount that I'd suggest lowering regardless of the gyno-cycle, as we all know chronic high-dose caffeine intake is not that great for your HPA. Adenosine antagonism is also a pretty shitty stimulant mechanism IMO but that's besides the point. My suggestion would be to gradually replace 'every-other' cup of coffee with de-caff, until you are down to one real cup per day (probably best used/needed in the early afternoon). If you do this while supplementing with something like ALCAR (i.e. a non-stimulant "stimulant"), after a short period of time you'll be feeling normal and much better off for it.

I know havoc doesn't work for everyone, but I've read several anecdotal reports on other forums of 20 mg/day reducing or completely eliminating gyno. I'm just hoping I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm also excited about the overall effect it should have on strength and body composition. If it doesn't help for gyno, I should at least get some decent muscle gains with fat loss. And, I actually started the cycle last night with 20 mg. Ideally I'd like to run a longer 10-12 week cycle of injectable epitiostanol (possibly with low dose test / AI?). I wouldn't know where to find that, though, so I'm left with Havoc which is at least legal and easily available.

I was thinking the sesamin would be helpful for fat loss and liver support, not having anything to do with gyno reduction. I've taken it before, usually to try to offset the effects of a cheat meal at McDonalds or something. I'm not sure how much it will help at a low daily dosage with a clean diet.

DHT does sound promising, but I'm worried about the possibility of hair loss. I forgot to mention before, I've been on finasteride 1 mg/day for the past 2 1/2 years. I don't know if that's contributing to the current gyno situation, but I don't want to stop taking it at the moment. My hair starts to fall out when I don't take it. At some point I'll just say "fuck it" and shave my head, but for now I'd like to keep my hair if possible.

I'm sticking with aromasin for now. I tried letro because I read it was the most effective at reducing / eliminating estrogen. The side effects were pretty awful, though. Constant joint pain, no sex drive, feeling crappy all the time. It's what got the gyno under control in the first place; I just don't want to deal with the side effects anymore.

I did experience some interesting sexual effects with the letro / caber combined. The letro pretty much took away all my desire for sex, but I could still have sex with no problem (with cialis). The lower estrogen apparently makes orgasm more difficult to reach, so I had several marathon sex sessions (for me at least) while on letro. With the lower prolactin from caber, multiple orgasms became possible on occasion. One time I went for 30 minutes straight, came, and then continued going for the next 45 minutes (with no break) until the second orgasm.

Thank you for an excellent response

I'm getting some theanine through my green tea extract capsules + a cup or two of green tea per day. I take additional theanine on occasion for specific situational anxiety. I'm keeping the cabergoline dose low for the moment, but I don't anticipate running it over the long term. This gyno situation is going to be resolved one way or another in the next 4 months or so. I'm just trying everything I can to get rid of it before resorting to surgery.



If you don't want to go with the slow and gradual method, it's possible to reset your caffeine tolerance by going cold turkey for 3 or 4 days. I was taking 2 to 3 grams per day at one point, but I found that after a single 3 or 4 day weekend of 0 caffeine intake I'd actually get a buzz again from a Monster or a Red Bull. Now I'm down to a small cup of coffee in the morning, a small cup of coffee or energy drink around mid afternoon, and possibly a diet soda or two sometime during the day. My energy levels now are actually just as good as they were back in my caffeine mega-dosing days.

This is day 8 of Havoc at 20 mg/day. So far, no major improvements on the gyno front. Things may have improved just a little, but it's hard to tell when it comes and goes the way it does.

This morning I weighed 218.5 lbs., and my waistline (relaxed) was still at 38". I bought one of those el-cheapo hand held body fat analyzers, which last weekend said I was at 19.4%. This morning it said 18.0%. I don't trust the accuracy of these things, but it looks like I'm moving in the right direction. Not quickly enough, though. I want more of this fat gone before the end of my cycle, so I'm going to cut my overall calories back to what they were last week.

In terms of strength, I feel great. Overall strength is up, and I feel pumped all the time. Joint pain has gone up some, particularly knee pain while walking or doing cardio (elliptical or exercise bike). I was going to start doing sprints again, but I won't try it with my knees feeling like this. It hasn't been an issue so far with actual strength training (leg press, leg extension, etc). I might cut the cycle short at 3 weeks if it gets any worse, but for now I'm doing ok with it.

I like what I'm seeing so far in terms of body composition, but I'm not optimistic about seeing major improvements with the gyno situation. I was thinking of getting some andractim for after the cycle, so I could run that along with the SERMs / AI for a couple months as a last ditch attempt to get rid of the gyno through chemical means. I haven't decided on that yet. With my luck, I'd probably just lose some hair and still have to get the surgery done.

Speaking of which, I'd go in for surgery today if I could. I just want to get this taken care of ASAFP. I'm back in Florida now; I want to go to the beach, hang out at the pool, water parks, etc. I just started a new job, though, so it will be a few months before I can take any time off. So I still have a little time to try other methods.

Because I can't resist posting half-naked pics of myself:

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You can't see any gyno in these pics. It's pretty much guaranteed to go away when I first take my shirt off in a cold room. I wish it always looked like this. I'll try to get some pics of it later when it looks worse; that way I'll have a way to track the improvements (if there are any).

I know I still have some fat to lose, but I really don't think I'm as high as 18%. My new bodyfat analyzer might be off a little.

I apologize for the nastiness of the pic here. My chest didn't used to look like this. This is what I'm trying to get rid of. It gets worse than this, particularly when I first wake up in the morning, but at least here you can see the nipple puffed out a little. It was actually much worse a couple months ago.

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I'm still not seeing much in terms of gyno reduction, so I upped the havoc dose to 30 mg today (day 11). I figured if I'm doing a cycle, I might as well get the most out of it. I'll stick with this dose for the moment, assuming I don't see any additional side effects.

I felt stronger today, more vascular, more aggressive. Blood pressure might be up a bit (haven't checked, just feels like it). I had a great workout tonight. If it wasn't for an old shoulder injury acting up (torn labrum from a couple years ago), I would have hit a new one rep max on bench press. I'm excited to see how much progress I'll make over the next couple weeks. Hopefully I won't have any problems maintaining the muscle gains / fat loss post cycle.

It feels like I've been starving all week, keeping calories way low (somewhere around 2000/day) with at least 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. I've had 2 minor cheat meals, nothing big though. My weight today (post workout) was 226. What? I didn't think that was possible with all the cardio I'm doing and with calories below maintenance.

Not that I'm complaining. I feel stronger and stronger every day. My arms feel huge, my legs feel huge. The body fat analyzer thingy now says 16.0%. Waistline is still at 38", unfortunately. I thought I'd be seeing more progress in terms of my abs, but I still have a couple weeks left to go. I'm feeling a little more joint pain at 30 mg/day, but it's not too bad so far. It's definitely worth it for the results I'm seeing.

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No real gyno improvements so far, by the way. Sometimes I think it's getting better, then it gets worse again. It's still worth running the cycle, though, for the muscle gains and fat loss I'm seeing.

I hit a new one rep max on bench press yesterday, 275. I actually did 2 reps, and I would have gone for 285 if it hadn't gotten major leg / ass cramps on my last set. I've had to cut back cardio just a little since my legs are pumped pretty much all the time. With my legs flexed all the time, I start to feel tired just standing up or walking around. Overall upper body strength gains have been limited slightly due to joint pain in my shoulder blade / neck / upper back. My knees are holding up pretty well, though. Arm strength has been great; yesterday I did standing 50 pound dumbbell curls, 4 sets of 10, after all my other heavy upper body stuff (seated cable rows, dips, lat pulldowns, military presses, upright rows, cable pushdowns).

I had to rearrange my schedule a little this week, so tonight was my heavy leg night. Despite having just done heavy upper body stuff yesterday, overall leg strength still improved from last week. I worked my way up to 6 x 885 (full range of motion, knees to chest) on my last set on leg press. Afterwards I did 4 sets of 10 at 305 (maxing out the machine) for leg extensions. My legs have been stronger before, but this is a nice improvement compared to recent months.

I haven't decided for sure, but I might extend the havoc cycle a few days. I'll have about 5 extra days worth of pills (at 30 mg/day) after 4 weeks. I doubt I'll be running another cycle anytime soon, if ever, so I might just finish off the bottle before I start pct.

I've been trying to stick to a low calorie diet, but I've been fucking ravenous ever since I upped the dose to 30 mg/day. My "cheat" meals have all been with healthy foods, no fast food / junk food / beer. I haven't been eating that much, really, maybe 2000 to 2500 calories a day at most. I'm still gaining weight like I'm on a bulking cycle. I'm up to 228.5 today. Waistline is still at 38", and the body fat analyzer post workout today said 16.1%. Overall strength keeps going up. For the remainder of the cycle, I'm going to focus as much as possible on losing body fat. Strength and size gains are nice, but I really want this extra fat gone.

I'm not doing the lipoderm-clen anymore, forgot to mention that. I used it for 7 days at the beginning of the cycle, 3 pumps a day on my ab region. I felt definite systemic effects from the clen, increased energy / jitteriness / shakiness / anxiety within minutes of application. When I switched to napalm (no clen), I felt extremely tired and sleepy for a few days. It felt like stimulant burnout. I can't afford to deal with that right now, so I'm putting the lipo-clen on hold until a future date. I've been using napalm on a daily basis since I stopped the clen.

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