I've recently started taking 56-64 mg of ephedrine a day by taking low doses every 1.5 max 2hrs apart. It has been two weeks now, and several people have noticed a difference in size. I actually am not bulking at this very second as I have switched to maintenances calls and focused on increasing my 10 rep max for pressing lifts.
Over these two weeks I have lost size on around my waist, maintained my weight, and turned my 8 rm into my 10 and soon I'm going to do it again. Now don't get my wrong the waist decrease is minimal, but the change in body composition is noticeable. Almost like some of my muscles just got denser.
I'm going to start eating more next week or this week, I will increase my weights down to my 5rm slowly then enter into a strength routine focusing on bench then deadlifts. If things continue as they are going, I will be breaking size and strength PRs.
I'm not using caffeine in any consistent manner, I occasionally will have a cup or two a tea.
Full Version: ephedrine while bulking or for new PRs
I loved using ephedrine low dose during bulking for exactly this reason. The improvement in body comp (decreasing bf% while increasing %musclemass) clearly translates into an appearance of increased size and muscularity, even if your weight is the same or even lower. I used 12.5-15 mg pre-workout on my low rep range workout-days and improved my strength and appearance dramatically. The problem of course is that chronic use can lead to HPA/hormone problems, and I have an irrational fear of arrhythmia/cardio problems. I'd suggest against using your high daily dose chronically, even if it is spread out like that.
Thanks for the reply Nightop, you wouldn't happen to have some reading about those problems handy would you? I'm curious as to how you use it, how many days conservatively, days off, dose, etc
I was planning on running it for only a month, any merit for taking a day off per week. I'm considering using HEAT in this manner, would I have to worry about the same problems? Or could I switch to HEAT after this and still receive similar benefits without the negatives, or would it be best to take a break.
I'd really like to finish a month on, but if this is inadvisable, unfortunately I'll have to stop.
I was planning on running it for only a month, any merit for taking a day off per week. I'm considering using HEAT in this manner, would I have to worry about the same problems? Or could I switch to HEAT after this and still receive similar benefits without the negatives, or would it be best to take a break.
I'd really like to finish a month on, but if this is inadvisable, unfortunately I'll have to stop.
QUOTE (nightop @ Mar 31 2008, 12:43 AM) 
I have an irrational fear of arrhythmia/cardio problems. I'd suggest against using your high daily dose chronically, even if it is spread out like that.
I am pretty certain that it is not irrational. There are scientific papers/studies on beta-agonists and their negative effects on heart.
After several years of intermittent use of ephedrine (I have never been an abuser), a sharp chest pain began to visit me once in a while, though infrequently. I had difficulty correlating ephedrine and my chest pains, because the pains never occurred immediately after I took ephedrine (more like hours or a day after I took ephedrine). After I stopped taking it for good, however, the chest pains went away.
If there was no potential for negative sides, I would use it still -- I like that kick I used to get before a workout.
Well, cardiovascular pharmacology is not my area of expertise, so I'm rather hesitant to conclude or spout information regarding something I have not extensively researched. That said, lets not let facts get in the way of a good opinion 
Essentially, chronic use of beta-agonists (which ephedrine is -- both a direct and indirect actually), particularly those that cause increased activation of B1 in the heart, may exacerbate left ventricular hypertrophy (which we all are at risk for to begin with thanks to resistance training) and could precipitate premature heart failure decades from now. There are also B-adrenoceptor dependent and independent effects of ephedrine on cardiac electrophysiological signatures/traces, which could lead to arrhythmia risks in some people.
On top of this, as I said, chronic use of ephedrine and most other stimulants for that matter can and will have negative effects on one's endocrine profile, including increased stress/cortisol levels and decreased androgen production. Although such effects will vary widely between individual in both severity and susceptibility, largely because so many other factors can influence the situation, namely sleep/diet/environmental-stress/lifestyle/etc.. Caleb and others here have written and discussed the HPA and its dysregulation and dysfunction in response to chronic stimulants and stressors -- do a search and also look at old issues of Mind & Muscle.
Of course, ephedrine is still relatively quite safe and was largely undeserving of its demonization by the media/FDA/AMA. Its all about context and strategic use. I'm just very careful about things like this even if I probably shouldn't be. When I used it, I ended up cycling it something like one week ephedrine and one week HEAT and then one week of washout (nothing), always taken a half-dose (12-15mg) on an empty stomach, along with my pre-workout drink. I think it is best used on low-rep/strength focused days where increased heart rate is a relatively smaller issue, and longer rest periods are taken between sets. Adrenergic pressor supps/drugs are very useful indeed, just be wise about chronic use and doseage.
Essentially, chronic use of beta-agonists (which ephedrine is -- both a direct and indirect actually), particularly those that cause increased activation of B1 in the heart, may exacerbate left ventricular hypertrophy (which we all are at risk for to begin with thanks to resistance training) and could precipitate premature heart failure decades from now. There are also B-adrenoceptor dependent and independent effects of ephedrine on cardiac electrophysiological signatures/traces, which could lead to arrhythmia risks in some people.
On top of this, as I said, chronic use of ephedrine and most other stimulants for that matter can and will have negative effects on one's endocrine profile, including increased stress/cortisol levels and decreased androgen production. Although such effects will vary widely between individual in both severity and susceptibility, largely because so many other factors can influence the situation, namely sleep/diet/environmental-stress/lifestyle/etc.. Caleb and others here have written and discussed the HPA and its dysregulation and dysfunction in response to chronic stimulants and stressors -- do a search and also look at old issues of Mind & Muscle.
Of course, ephedrine is still relatively quite safe and was largely undeserving of its demonization by the media/FDA/AMA. Its all about context and strategic use. I'm just very careful about things like this even if I probably shouldn't be. When I used it, I ended up cycling it something like one week ephedrine and one week HEAT and then one week of washout (nothing), always taken a half-dose (12-15mg) on an empty stomach, along with my pre-workout drink. I think it is best used on low-rep/strength focused days where increased heart rate is a relatively smaller issue, and longer rest periods are taken between sets. Adrenergic pressor supps/drugs are very useful indeed, just be wise about chronic use and doseage.
QUOTE (nightop @ Mar 31 2008, 11:15 PM)
Well, cardiovascular pharmacology is not my area of expertise
OT: If you don't mind me asking, what is your area of expertise? What do you do? You seem to be quite well-versed in a variety of subjects.
Well I have gone off it anyways, this has been me first real experiment with it and I conclude I respond quite well to it and can easily handle its affects. In the past I just kept it on hand in case I got a cold.
High heart rate you say. I'll have to take my heart rate after heavy deads/squats and see if there is a difference, around 10RM my HR goes near sprinting speed - 170 vs 180 for sprinting. However, I original thought it was a blood pressure issue that was the main concern and figured avoiding the more strenuous lifts maybe idea. Unless I have this wrong, does high heart rate = increase blood pressure?
I'm going to search up some old issues.
High heart rate you say. I'll have to take my heart rate after heavy deads/squats and see if there is a difference, around 10RM my HR goes near sprinting speed - 170 vs 180 for sprinting. However, I original thought it was a blood pressure issue that was the main concern and figured avoiding the more strenuous lifts maybe idea. Unless I have this wrong, does high heart rate = increase blood pressure?
I'm going to search up some old issues.
QUOTE (dashforce @ Apr 1 2008, 12:50 PM)
OT: If you don't mind me asking, what is your area of expertise? What do you do? You seem to be quite well-versed in a variety of subjects.
My area of expertise is probably a tie between delusions of grandeur and hopeless existential angst. I'm also pretty good at saying the wrong things to women.
But my day job is neuropharm/CNS-drug discovery.
Part of the equation is that the increased body temp tends to cause veins to be more visible + diuretic effect - both which promote muscular definition which makes you look bigger/more cut.
Secondly the increased NE/DA gives you an overall feeling of being the fucking man and although your physique hasnīt changed much in the last 30 minutes since that ephedrine dose, your perception changes radically.
Thirdly the beta-agonsism may offer some anti-catabolic effects and the increased stimuli from using heavier weights due to ephedrine enhanced mayhem in the gym could surely promote size gains but not to the extent one "thinks" while using stims.
Just my 2 cents.
Secondly the increased NE/DA gives you an overall feeling of being the fucking man and although your physique hasnīt changed much in the last 30 minutes since that ephedrine dose, your perception changes radically.
Thirdly the beta-agonsism may offer some anti-catabolic effects and the increased stimuli from using heavier weights due to ephedrine enhanced mayhem in the gym could surely promote size gains but not to the extent one "thinks" while using stims.
Just my 2 cents.
QUOTE (nightop @ Apr 1 2008, 12:15 AM)
Well, cardiovascular pharmacology is not my area of expertise, so I'm rather hesitant to conclude or spout information regarding something I have not extensively researched. That said, lets not let facts get in the way of a good opinion
Essentially, chronic use of beta-agonists (which ephedrine is -- both a direct and indirect actually), particularly those that cause increased activation of B1 in the heart, may exacerbate left ventricular hypertrophy (which we all are at risk for to begin with thanks to resistance training) and could precipitate premature heart failure decades from now. There are also B-adrenoceptor dependent and independent effects of ephedrine on cardiac electrophysiological signatures/traces, which could lead to arrhythmia risks in some people.
On top of this, as I said, chronic use of ephedrine and most other stimulants for that matter can and will have negative effects on one's endocrine profile, including increased stress/cortisol levels and decreased androgen production. Although such effects will vary widely between individual in both severity and susceptibility, largely because so many other factors can influence the situation, namely sleep/diet/environmental-stress/lifestyle/etc.. Caleb and others here have written and discussed the HPA and its dysregulation and dysfunction in response to chronic stimulants and stressors -- do a search and also look at old issues of Mind & Muscle.
Of course, ephedrine is still relatively quite safe and was largely undeserving of its demonization by the media/FDA/AMA. Its all about context and strategic use. I'm just very careful about things like this even if I probably shouldn't be. When I used it, I ended up cycling it something like one week ephedrine and one week HEAT and then one week of washout (nothing), always taken a half-dose (12-15mg) on an empty stomach, along with my pre-workout drink. I think it is best used on low-rep/strength focused days where increased heart rate is a relatively smaller issue, and longer rest periods are taken between sets. Adrenergic pressor supps/drugs are very useful indeed, just be wise about chronic use and doseage.
Essentially, chronic use of beta-agonists (which ephedrine is -- both a direct and indirect actually), particularly those that cause increased activation of B1 in the heart, may exacerbate left ventricular hypertrophy (which we all are at risk for to begin with thanks to resistance training) and could precipitate premature heart failure decades from now. There are also B-adrenoceptor dependent and independent effects of ephedrine on cardiac electrophysiological signatures/traces, which could lead to arrhythmia risks in some people.
On top of this, as I said, chronic use of ephedrine and most other stimulants for that matter can and will have negative effects on one's endocrine profile, including increased stress/cortisol levels and decreased androgen production. Although such effects will vary widely between individual in both severity and susceptibility, largely because so many other factors can influence the situation, namely sleep/diet/environmental-stress/lifestyle/etc.. Caleb and others here have written and discussed the HPA and its dysregulation and dysfunction in response to chronic stimulants and stressors -- do a search and also look at old issues of Mind & Muscle.
Of course, ephedrine is still relatively quite safe and was largely undeserving of its demonization by the media/FDA/AMA. Its all about context and strategic use. I'm just very careful about things like this even if I probably shouldn't be. When I used it, I ended up cycling it something like one week ephedrine and one week HEAT and then one week of washout (nothing), always taken a half-dose (12-15mg) on an empty stomach, along with my pre-workout drink. I think it is best used on low-rep/strength focused days where increased heart rate is a relatively smaller issue, and longer rest periods are taken between sets. Adrenergic pressor supps/drugs are very useful indeed, just be wise about chronic use and doseage.
hope you don't mind nightop, I quoted this on another board. Actual quote though, using your name and everything. Would not steal such an awesome post.
I waited a bit to post this.
After ending the ephedrine I had a massive appetite rebound for two days. Interestingly it wasn't that I was hungry all day it was when I started eating I just wouldn't get full and could easily binge eat, for instance after a 12oz stake meal I felt hungrier than before. Anyways my weight shot up 4lbs (in a matter of a few days) pushing me to the heaviest I've ever been. I've since easily held that weight vs my previous heaviest was only held for a brief time.
Curious to hear how long the rebound hunger hits you for and if it consistent to have such weight gains, I suspect mine is largely water due to the rapid raise but I feel it goes to show I had to have put on phantom weight while using it because I can assure you I was fully carbed up when I started.
After ending the ephedrine I had a massive appetite rebound for two days. Interestingly it wasn't that I was hungry all day it was when I started eating I just wouldn't get full and could easily binge eat, for instance after a 12oz stake meal I felt hungrier than before. Anyways my weight shot up 4lbs (in a matter of a few days) pushing me to the heaviest I've ever been. I've since easily held that weight vs my previous heaviest was only held for a brief time.
Curious to hear how long the rebound hunger hits you for and if it consistent to have such weight gains, I suspect mine is largely water due to the rapid raise but I feel it goes to show I had to have put on phantom weight while using it because I can assure you I was fully carbed up when I started.
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