Ok. Time for a battle to the death.

For both Flax and Fish oils...

What brand?
What dosage?
How often?
Why?

Why this thread? Because I am trying to find a conclusive answer as to the favorite brands as well as how much really works. Ive heard of people gobbling down 40+ pills at a time and this shit just seems stupid.

I'll start off...

Fish Oil:
Costco Brand (cheap) in capsule form (dont like liquid taste)
3x 850mg (EPA:DHA 1.2:1 ratio)
2 in the morning - 1 after lunch

Flax Oil:
Spectrum Essentials (no good reason)
3.4g refridgerated
1x daily in the morning

Fish oils beat out flax any day of the week (see abstracts).

DHA levels saturate at 1.2 grams/day when combined with EPA(about ten standard capsules); DHA saturates at 2 grams per day without supplemental EPA. Mega-doses will only compromise immune function.

There has been at least one discussion on fish vs. TAGs vs. ethyl esters and absorption of CLA/EPA/DHA. If I remember, fish > TAGs > ethyl ester. With the difference between the latter two being somewhat controversal (and likely not of any great significance).

--------------------------------------

Eicosapentaenoic and docosapentaenoic acids are the principal products of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in young men*.

Burdge GC, Jones AE, Wootton SA.

Institute of Human Nutrition, Level C, West Wing, Southampton General Hospital, Tremona Road, Southampton, SO16 6YD, UK. gcb@soton.ac.uk

The capacity for conversion of alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to n-3 long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids was investigated in young men. Emulsified [U-13C]ALNA was administered orally with a mixed meal to six subjects consuming their habitual diet. Approximately 33 % of administered [13C]ALNA was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h. [13C]ALNA was mobilised from enterocytes primarily as chylomicron triacylglycerol (TAG), while [13C]ALNA incorporation into plasma phosphatidylcholine (PC) occurred later, probably by the liver. The time scale of conversion of [13C]ALNA to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) suggested that the liver was the principal site of ALNA desaturation and elongation, although there was some indication of EPA and DPA synthesis by enterocytes. [13C]EPA and [13C]DPA concentrations were greater in plasma PC than TAG, and were present in the circulation for up to 7 and 14 d, respectively. There was no apparent 13C enrichment of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) in plasma PC, TAG or non-esterified fatty acids at any time point measured up to 21 d. This pattern of 13C n-3 fatty acid labelling suggests inhibition or restriction of DHA synthesis downstream of DPA. [13C]ALNA, [13C]EPA and [13C]DPA were incorporated into erythrocyte PC, but not phosphatidylethanolamine, suggesting uptake of intact plasma PC molecules from lipoproteins into erythrocyte membranes. Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals.

Conversion of alpha-linolenic acid to eicosapentaenoic, docosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids in young women.

Burdge GC, Wootton SA.

Institute of Human Nutrition, University of Southampton, Southampton, UK. g.c.burdge@soton.ac.uk

The extent to which women of reproductive age are able to convert the n-3 fatty acid alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) was investigated in vivo by measuring the concentrations of labelled fatty acids in plasma for 21 d following the ingestion of [U-13C]ALNA (700 mg). [13C]ALNA excursion was greatest in cholesteryl ester (CE) (224 (sem 70) micromol/l over 21 d) compared with triacylglycerol (9-fold), non-esterified fatty acids (37-fold) and phosphatidylcholine (PC, 7-fold). EPA excursion was similar in both PC (42 (sem micromol/l) and CE (42 (sem 9) micromol/l) over 21 d. In contrast both [13C]DPA and [13C]DHA were detected predominately in PC (18 (sem 4) and 27 (sem 7) micromol/l over 21 d, respectively). Estimated net fractional ALNA inter-conversion was EPA 21 %, DPA 6 % and DHA 9 %. Approximately 22 % of administered [13C]ALNA was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h of the study. These results suggest differential partitioning of ALNA, EPA and DHA between plasma lipid classes, which may facilitate targeting of individual n-3 fatty acids to specific tissues. Comparison with previous studies suggests that women may possess a greater capacity for ALNA conversion than men. Such metabolic capacity may be important for meeting the demands of the fetus and neonate for DHA during pregnancy and lactation. Differences in DHA status between women both in the non-pregnant state and in pregnancy may reflect variations in metabolic capacity for DHA synthesis.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jun;83(6 Suppl):1467S-1476S.Links
Distribution, interconversion, and dose response of n-3 fatty acids in humans.
Arterburn LM, Hall EB, Oken H.

Martek Biosciences Corporation, Columbia, MD, USA. larterburn@martekbio.com

n-3 Fatty acids have important visual, mental, and cardiovascular health benefits throughout the life cycle. Biodistribution, interconversion, and dose response data are reviewed herein to provide a basis for more rational n-3 dose selections. Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is the principal n-3 fatty acid in tissues and is particularly abundant in neural and retinal tissue. Limited storage of the n-3 fatty acids in adipose tissue suggests that a continued dietary supply is needed. A large proportion of dietary alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) is oxidized, and because of limited interconversion of n-3 fatty acids in humans, ALA supplementation does not result in appreciable accumulation of long-chain n-3 fatty acids in plasma. Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) but not DHA concentrations in plasma increase in response to dietary EPA. Dietary DHA results in a dose-dependent, saturable increase in plasma DHA concentrations and modest increases in EPA concentrations. Plasma DHA concentrations equilibrate in approximately 1 mo and then remain at steady state throughout supplementation. DHA doses of approximately 2 g/d result in a near maximal plasma response. Both dietary DHA and EPA reduce plasma arachidonic acid concentrations. Tissue contents of DHA and EPA also increase in response to supplementation with these fatty acids. Human milk contents of DHA are dependent on diet, and infant DHA concentrations are determined by their dietary intake of this fatty acid. We conclude that the most predictable way to increase a specific long-chain n-3 fatty acid in plasma, tissues, or human milk is to supplement with the fatty acid of interest.

This should provide some insight as to single vs. multiple daily doses for sustained peak plasma levels.

"DHA levels saturate at 1.2 grams/day when combined with EPA(about ten standard capsules); DHA saturates at 2 grams per day without supplemental EPA. Mega-doses will only compromise immune function."

Wait this is true if you weight 50 kg or 100 kg? If you are healthy or have some severe e.g. autoimmune disease, etc? No person to person variability?

Its not a bad idea to take both... eg. 1-2 TBSPNs of Flax Seed Oil and 1-2 servings of Fish Oil, per day. Always consume with a big meal.

For the flax seed oil, try Barlean's High Lignan Flax Seed Oil.

For the fish oil, try Genuine Health's O3mega product (brought to my attention via Ras, that stooge).

I was just presenting information from one of the abstracts. One would have to check the full text for body weight of the subjects/individual dose-response and research further for information on autoimmune disease.

Good info.

Which ones/brands/doses do you guys take?

Look no further


http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/brow....jsp?id=CL-1938

2 tablespoons a day

I am not A stooge. I am Iggy Pop.

Any reason for the liquid versus the caps?
And do you take flax oil, as well?

It's the best bang for the buck. By far.
No flax.
The only thing I worry about is the time it spends in hot temperatures while shipping. I live in Florida. Probably not much of a concern.

I like Walmart's orange flavored cod liver oil. Tastes pretty good to me.

Carlson Laboratories Very Finest Fish Oil Lemon Flavor - if you haven't tried it and you think yours is pretty good then maybe you shouldn't - it's that good

I've tried several flavoured brands but the closest was only half as good. When I take it with milk I think it tastes like yellow fruit loops!!

I can't stand flax, the only way I could eat it is by soaking cashews in it and putting them on salads. I was never able to finish my second bottle, I had to switch to cod liver oil. But I am very interested in hemp oil, it has a higher amount of GLA than flax and it is supposed to taste better, I'll actually get a bottle this weekend.

Why is it that Canadians know more about American pop-culture than Americans?

Please pass the maple leaf.

I've seen this research, and don't give it much credence or applicability to our demographic, based on theory and practice.

I'd have to agree. That makes much more sense than one size fits all, even for people of the same weight.

"In practice" is all well and good, but what theory would justify dosing past the point of saturation? (Marc has stated he is in the higher dose camp - i.e. about 2 tbsp fish oil per day) Clearly, multiple divided doses would largely avoid the saturation issue; I presume you're not taking all the oil at once.

As an aside, the disconnect between conclusions reached from the literature and those reached from experience are a constant source of consternation.

""In practice" is all well and good, but what theory would justify dosing past the point of saturation?"

Like I said above, this assumes the research you quoted accurately reflects the dose required to produce saturation for all the population, something I am skeptical of.


Not particularly, I just think about what I've read and if I doesn't make sense in light of what else is in the literature and what I've experienced, I ignore it :-) You can find one paper to show almost anything. This is why as valuable as research is, to think you can look through the literature and with 100% certainty predict what is going to happen in any one person is silly for numerous reasons. This is why medicine is an apprenticeship, and not 4 years of studying pubmed.

How long is the system saturated for? If only for that one meal (just as an example, if the saturation were occurring at the absorption level), then you could dose multiple times daily, thus justifying both a saturation point and larger doses -- just multiple times in the day.

The time-scale for changing the composition of plasma fatty acids appears to be weeks to months. From the "distribution, interconversion, ..." paper:

We have studied the kinetics of DHA supplementation in plasma and red blood cells. As shown in Figure 7, plasma phospholipid
concentrations of DHA increased rapidly in a dosedependent manner after daily supplementation, and, in agreement
with the findings of others (79, 80), reached equilibrium within 1 mo of the start of a new high-dose supplementation
regimen. The kinetics of the response was slightly slower with low-dose supplementation. Once new equilibrium concentrations
were attained, steady state concentrations were maintained throughout the supplementation period. A similar phenomenon
was also reported by Wheaton et al (81) in whole plasma, who showed elevatedDHAthroughout a 4-y supplementation period.
ARA concentrations decreased in a more gradual dosedependent manner, but eventually resulted in new equilibrium
concentrations in plasma phospholipids (Figure 7). Red blood cell kinetics followed a similar pattern; however, it took 4–6 mo
after the start of DHA supplementation to reach new steady state concentrations, which is consistent with the slower turnover of
these cells. Red blood cellDHAconcentrations were maintained thereafter throughout the supplementation period. Other studies
with combinations of long-chain n
3 supplementation have shown that EPA accumulates more rapidly in plasma and red
blood cells than does DHA (75, 79).

The kinetics ofDHAand EPA washout after n
3 supplementation have been studied by other investigators, who have consistently
shown that DHA is more slowly cleared from plasma than is EPA. Marangoni et al (75) reported that whole plasma
DHA concentrations decreased slowly once long-chain n
3 supplementation had stopped and even after 24 wk were not
entirely back to baseline levels. EPA concentrations, on the other hand, decreased rapidly after supplementation was stopped and
approached baseline within 4 wk. Others have shown a more rapid washout of EPA and slower reductions in DHA in plasma
phospholipids after the completion of fish oil supplementation, and both DHA and EPA decease more rapidly in plasma cholesterol
esters than in phospholipids (76, 82). Katan et al (77) similarly found faster washout of EPA than of DHA from red blood
cells.

Differences in the accumulation and retention of DHA and EPA may be related to the lipid moieties in which these fatty
acids are stored.DHAis carried predominantly in phospholipids, a more stable lipid fraction in plasma, with lesser portions in
triacylglycerol and sterol esters, whereas EPA is more equally distributed between neutral lipids (sterol esters and triacylglycerol)
and phospholipids (71, 76, 79). Only small amounts of each of these fatty acids are present in their nonesterified free fatty acid
form (80). The differential distribution ofDHAand EPA may be linked to differences in the kinetics of washout as well as their
saturation dynamics in plasma and availability to tissues.

ScottL,

Suppose you know with great precision the dose of DHA/EPA that will saturate a given 'normal' individual's plasma. Do you supplement at, above, or below this known dose? Why?

In other words, what (either from the literature or personal experience) justifies the risk vs. reward in favor of high dose EPA/DHA?

Either I am not expressing myself, or you do not believe what I am saying. I do not believe that the amount of EPA/DHA needed to saturate the plasma is going to be the same for any 1000 people, not even to within 10% or 20%.

There is no prototypical normal person. Look at bowel tolerance to vitamin C for healthy people, look at the genetic variation in metabolism of folic acid. Sure some nutrients probably have a relatively narrow optimum amount for most people, but I am skeptical that something like EPA/DHA which has so many effects is going to be one such substance.

Edit: to finish the thought I think some people will need much higher doses because they will need that much to keep the receptors saturated.

I take fish oil for the EPA/DHA.
Also every morning I grind up 2 tablespoons of flaxseed to put into my oats. The lignans in the husk of the flaxseed supposedly get converted by bacteria in the gut into useful phyto-estrogens of sorts. Although they supposedly don't act like estrogens they just look like them. The lignans supposedly reduce prostrate size, are used as adjunct for breast cancer treatment and also improve cholesterol ratios, (although this is probably due to the soluble fiber). I did a bunch of research out of curiosity a while ago, there is a mountain of recent stuff on pubmed. The take home message I got was just to be sure to grind up the whole seeds in order to get all the benefits. Just taking the oil will miss out on the majority of the benefits. If you eat the whole flaxseeds they will go right thru you. Makes for interesting looking feces though!

Tricky bastards.

For those who don't want to do their own grinding, pre-ground flax seed is available. I like Barleans or, the very economical Red Mill. ($2.50 for 1lb at Trader Joes.) Beware of Health From The Sun SPROUTED flax seed. May be a good product but, has strange, funky taste.

"Makes for interesting looking feces though!"

The quesion, put yet another way, was: what beneficial effects might be seen by dosing fish oil beyond the amount that produces tissue saturation?

Was not interested in what this dosage might be or if it varies between individuals, although I believe you are correct concerning absence of a singe optimal dose for all individuals.

Answer:



Thank you.

Diets high in PUFs have been discussed extensively....

On a flax note I believe Flax is a lot like coffee and starts to denature so long after it's ground. Freshley ground is definitely the way to go with either.

Haha damn. Ive just lost even more faith in flax and fish oil.

I think the 900 pound elephant in the room of Flax n' Fish oil is no one know how the fuck to dose it and the frequency.

Yet everyone yaps about how good it is...?

So because there is disagreement over optimal dosing for fish oil means it does not have any benefits? Are you familiar with pubmed (or google scholar)?

If you are healthy and under 40 just take 1 gram (EPA + DHA) per day if you are interested in fish oil for health benefits.

plasma saturation is not tissue saturation. it may take a couple of months at least to get that.



as for the flax discussion, flax seems pointless to me. just eat some walnuts if you want ALA.

WHat do the members here think of the product Fisol???
It is enteric coated and dissolves in the small intestine. This way it does not come back up at all.

http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=1787

Product Description:
Natural Cardiovascular & Joint Health. Fisol™, enteric coated, fish oil delivers 30% EPA and 20% DHA. The unique coating withstands stomach acid so Fisol™ dissolves in the small intestine and maximizes the body's absorption of Omega-3 Essential Fatty Acids. Scientific research confirms the important role of Omega-3 essential fatty acids in maintaining healthy blood triglyceride levels, as well as supporting the heart, skin and joints. Fish Oil contains an abundance of two-key Omega-3 Essential Fatty Acids, EPA and DHA. It is well documented that cultures with a diet rich in fish oil have healthier cardiovascular systems.
Warnings:
Store in a cool, dry place. Keep out of the reach of children.
Ingredients:
Other Ingredients: Gelatin, Glycerin, Water, and Aqueous Coating Solution.
Recommended Use:
Take one Fisol™ softgel up to three times daily with water. Because Fisol™ is enteric coated and better absorbed by the body, its required dosage is less than taking non-coated fish oil.




Supplement Facts Serving Size: 1 Softgel
Servings Per Container: 90

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amount
Per Serving % Daily
Value*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calories 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total Fat 0.5 g <1%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vitamin E ( as d-alpha tocopheryl) 1 IU 3%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fish Oil (providing 150 mg EPA ( Elcosapentaeonoic Acid) and 100 mg DHA ( Docosahexaenoic Acid)) 500 mg **

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Based on a 2,000 calorie diet
** Daily Values not established

Proton,

The main reason I take ground flax seeds, is that my gut is a little off, and it is the one form of fiber that my gut "likes".

that Fisol looks overpriced to me. and the point of enteric coating is not to maximize absorption, but to stop fishy burps. plus, i find the shill testimonials more distasteful than rancid fish oil.




nothing wrong with that then

this is what i prefer. plain old cod liver oil, with flavoring if you like. bottle is sealed to minimize oxidation. keep it in the fridge.

http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=6634

I wonder if it is the flax mucilage. Mucilage from marshmallow and slippery elm has been shown to soothe the stomach lining. But also to reduce absorption of certain nutrients?

Oatmeal is also great for soothing the gut.

I personally use NutraSea liquid fish oil, in divided doses. I don't waste my money on flax oil, but ground flax and walnuts are a great option for ALA. I just bought some chia seeds, also high in omega-3s. They don't taste like much, give me some walnuts any day.