In the rec. drug combo thread, Habit mentioned that after years of abuse he has a hard time enjoying the simple things in life, basically being emotionally unresponsive.

First off, ive done plenty of searching and reading, but still have not found a complete write-up on why opiates make you feel good. Some of the writings are contradictory to others, and to a large degree. Also understand that I have not near the knowledge as most of you, so it is harder for me to understand some aspects, and then to develop my own conclusions.

For one, I would like, if someone would be so kind, to explain the most accepted reasoning behind optiate induced euphoria.

Secondly, what nerolgical system incurs the "downregulation" that would result in post-abuse emotional indifference. (Besides the obvious opioid receptors)

And third, what steps/supplements could be utilized to prevent, or "fix" the damage done. I dont even know if that is a possibility, but I figured id ask, as I swear to God you guys are the most intelligent individuals I have ever interacted with.

PS I dont abuse pills per say, but I am a daily user of kratom. My tolerance stays the same because I dont go crazy with the dose. I would just like an understanding of the whole picture.

Thanks, Matt

I always thought opioid receptor= dopamine release. (possibly tied to glutamine/glutamate??). That is what I have read but I cannot confirm it is true. NAC might help control cravings as it does with cocaine, and this ashwagandha study has been posted before..


Inhibition of morphine tolerance and dependence by Withania somnifera in mice.

Chronic treatment with Withania somnifera (Ws) (family: Solanaceae, 100 mg/kg) commercial root extract followed by saline on days 1-9 failed to produce any significant change in tailflick latency from the saline pretreated group in mice. However, repeated administration of Ws (100 mg/kg) for 9 days attenuated the development of tolerance to the analgesic effect of morphine (10 mg/kg). Ws (100 mg/kg) also suppressed morphine-withdrawal jumps, a sign of the development of dependence to opiate as assessed by naloxone (2 mg/kg) precipitation withdrawal on day 10 of testing.

PMID: 9292416 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

To fix possible damage, I speculate a good diet with exercise would help. Gotu kola and ashwagandha are two herbs that have been shown to grow and repair damaged neurons and dendrites in vivo and vitro. I believe high doses are needed for that though, and I have have no clue what parts of the brain they work their magic on.

DHEA maybe? Fish oil?

Inositol increases dopamine receptors which might possibly be good for pleasure(speculating again..). Combined with a dopamine agonists = happiness??

Ibogaine? Salvia? Agmatine?

Euphoria tends to correlate with dopamine in the shell of the nucleus accumbens, which leads to a downstream effect of uh, some other relatively only recently known NT/ligand I can't recall offhand, and that seems to a play a very direct role in the euphoria (whereas the dopamine is more the "drive" for it). I suspect it's a horribly complex process. But the nucleus accumbens and dopamine play a key role in all types, including opiate-induced.

As to why you have emotional blunting, I don't know, and none of the studies I found on PubMed were particularly specific.

In general, emotional blunting can be due to depression, or disassociative / depersonalization disorders. Or schizoid PD, schizotypal PD, etc.

In all but depression, all those disorders are characterized by an almost exaggerated response to pain (usually emotional) that results in high levels of endogenous beta-endorphin being released, which causes emotional blunting. At least that's an aspect or correlate of it. These symptoms remit with an opiate antagonist like naltrexone.

The problem is in trying to study opiate users vs. control is that opiate users probably weren't normal to begin with. There's a reason they took opiates. It may be for euphoria alone, but usually, it is not. Daniel Goleman suggested it was due to anger, and this is a concept central to APC's song about opiates called "Orestes", with the song going "One more medicated peaceful moment / Because I don't wanna feel this overwhelming hostility". But that's hardly the only reason people take opiates, they also make good antidepressants and an avoidant coping mechanism to stress / isolation / etc.

So if you look at what regions of an opiate users brain are different, that doesn't tell you if they were always like that, or like that due to the drug use.

And therein lies another problem: after the drug is withdrawn, these problems can remain. In fact, they may even be worse. So the causes that led to taking the drug can still be present.

And if those causes are emotional pain or depression, those are going to involve emotional blunting. Opiate use can also lead to a lot of negative changes in your life that make you isolated, depressed, etc... and can also create these things.

As to what the drug does itself, without any other factors in consideration... the answer is, I don't know. I suspect it downregulates parts of the dopamine system in the NAC that comprise part of the reward system, which is probably reversible with time, and also leads to changes in the mu opioid receptor system. Mostly it's downregulation / desensitization of it. But in some cases from studies I read, it actually hypertrophied parts of the mu opioid system, which may (after the rest of it normalizes) lead to hypersentivities to beta endorphin that could blunt emotions more than normal.

So, how do you fix whatever is wrong?

First, see what you know about causes and contributing factors. There are likely many and the full extent is beyond us. But even knowing some is a starting point. If you are socially isolated, depressed, etc... resolving those things can make you much more emotionally responsive. (ironically, resolving those issues is made difficult by blunted emotions in some ways) Exercise. Bright light. Good sleep, diet. Doing things you enjoy and get into a flow state. Feeling connected, feeling you contribute, etc etc.

Beyond that... yeah, ibogaine, salvia, DHEA, maybe some other stuffs. I dunno about ibogaine but I would recommend DHEA for sure and if it's legal/available in your area give salvia a try when you're in the right frame of mind for it.

In studies on disorders with too high of levels of BE, obviously naltrexone worked, but so did stimulants. So maybe some bupropion or something might be helpful at breaking through any opiate fog you have.

There's really no simple answer. It will take time. But a lot of it will attenuate and normalize by itself. Hell, the changes caffeine causes to adenosine receptors alone in the brain take several months to revert.

I suffer from emotional blunting, and I've never abused opiates. I think it's more a function of age than anything else. My daily functioning is maintained via exploitation of the GIGOB pathway: girl-inspired goal-oriented behavior. Driving personal evolution since way the fuck back in the BC..

Seriously, though, I've found two things that work: high-risk / thrill activities, and women. Especially high-risk / thrill activities WITH women. Everything else is just 'meh'. So my advice is to chase women that are out of your league and jump out of airplanes.

Hormones? Does opiates drop T levels? Depressed T = emotional blunting, no?

Yes opiates can drop T levels but hypogonadism also = negative affect/mood. Perhaps blunted overall, but you'd still feel.

Im not a serious abuser, just a wondering mind. Ive had emotional blunting since childhood... ie. Close family members dying; there was sadness, but no tears etc.

I use 2-3x per week, not to avoid anything, just to catch a buzz. Im actually very extroverted, do good in school, tons of freinds, healthy social life, good family relationships, enjoyable hobbies and all that good stuff. Opiates just make the laying in bed watching movies and taking the kids to the park type of activities more enjoyable.

With those type of activities, I guess my reward circuit tells me it is a waste of time because more fruitfull activities could be undertaken. I know its good to spend time with the kids (girlfreinds, not mine) and I love them, but my brain says I could be studying, cleaning, working etc.

And not just with kids, with anything that is not instantly rewarding.

Am I a chemical product of this instant gratification culture? Or just an asshole?

To answer this I would suggest the following before trying to answer this. But yes your probably both, which one has more weight...

Are you familiar with your personality type, no not just the plain overview stuff like extrovert, type A, theory X/Y etc. But the Myers-Briggs based stuff, I obtained my info on my personality type from a book called understand me, yeah sounds stupid and I was sceptical at first. After taking a quick test and being stunned by the how the book knew how I thought I was able to analyze myself further to help solve questions like this. There is much on the net, for instance in one of my management texts you can look at the Myers-Briggs personality types pick one that suits you and just search the type on the net. But if you're not able to be brutally honest and look at yourself without emotion/bias use a test - and attempt to be as unbiased as possible. There are a few test on the net, the ones that ask for money are the good tests, the free ones aren't so good. Or so I've found - interesting stuff none the less.

I have not, but I will. Thanks.