Time = money, right?

As some of you may know, I have been experimenting with ALCAR + l-theanine stack for a while, in order to reduce sleep duration, increase the quality of sleep, and increase the feeling of well-being (during the day upon awaking, that is).

I believe I have arrived at the proper protocol for achieving this.
By following the protocol, I have been able to reduce my sleep about 1.5 hours / day).

I would like some feedback, to see if the following formulation works with others.

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The protocol for its administration is as follows:

(1) At about 3 hours before bed,

(2) Take 1 g ALCAR + 600~800 mg l-theanine (on half-empty stomach)

(3) Preferably, during maintenance calorie diet. A light meal between the time of the administration and bedtime actually seems to be helpful.

(4) No exercise between the time of its administration and sleep.

It takes one's body a day or two to adjust.


** 1 g ALCAR maybe too strong (I think actually 700 mg would be better).

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EDIT: From my experience (and my wife's), if one is doing somethign close to what I outlined above, one should feel differently that same night / the morning immediately following the administration. IOW, the effect is immediate. However, it may take your body a few days to adjust and become comfortable.

1) where are you getting your ALCAR from?

2) how many hours would you usually sleep w/o the use of this stack? (how many hours are you down to now)

(1) Any ALCAR would do; just need sufficient quantity of it. I get mine from BAC.

(2) I usually need about 7-8 hours of sleep. I am taking about 5-6 hours. I could go with less than 5 hrs, with no impairment, depending a bit on the condition of administration,

I am trying this, I have NOW brand ALCAR and l-Theanine (has decaf green tea extract in it also.) I am also taking NOW brand l-Tyrosine. I started at 500mg ALCAR and 500mg l-Theanine in the evening with 1gram l-tyrosine and the same in the morning. I'm staying between maintainance cals and below and am using FL7. I'm hoping to reduce the amount of sleep needed and alertness/well being during the day based on VC's experience. I took 1gram ALCAR 500mg l-Theanine and 1gram l-Tyrosine this morning, felt a little sick after that for a few hours. I won't be able to give very solid feedback, but maybe in a week I can give an overall summary of my experience. Still fooling around with dosing. I currently need 9-10.5 hrs of sleep.

The protocol is rather tricky. Some pointers.

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TIMING:

(1) It seems to make significant difference whether you take them just before bed or 3 hours before bed. I don't know why.

(2) If you take the stack JUST before bed, you will end up getting very light sleep. You will wake up feeling CRAPPY instead, as ALCAR seems to the activate the brain way too much.

(3) If you take it too far from the bedtime, the effect seems to vanish.

So, there is an optimum moment to take the stack. I think it is between 2 - 4 hours before bed.

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DOSAGE:

(1) ALCAR: ALCAR seems to determine the degree of alertness before bed as well as after waking. Too much and you will have difficulty going to sleep and you end up waking feeling un-rested. Too little and you won't feel much. Personally, I feel 500 mg is too weak; 1 g is a bit too strong. I couldn't get my hands on 700 mg caps, however.

(2) l-theanine seems to provide the ingredient for "intensifying" the sleep (making if more effective, whatever that means). At about 200 mg, nothing. At around 400 mg, there is some response. At 600 mg, there is clear signal from the body. I have not played as much with 800 mg dosages.

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FOOD

Eating seems to potentiate the effects of ALCAR + l-theanine. Don't know why. I don't take ALCAR + l-theanine together with food, because it will down the absorption. I take them 30 min to 1 hours before I eat, in 1/2 empty stomach.

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DAYTIME USE

Given the price of l-theanine, I really would not use it during daytime.

During daytime, ALCAR can be stacked with r-ALA, rather than l-theanine. Besides, ALCAR is said to increase mitochondrial activity, which increases oxidants -- it should be stacked with r-ALA.

Just to note, the last two nights I woke up drenched in sweat. Could have been the aminos or FL7. I'll try to do more of the approach you're taking and see how it goes.

(1) I also experienced increased heat production during sleep. I was not drenched in sweat. Nor was I using FL7.

(2) I have not tried tyrosine, BUT, I would guess that it enhances l-theanine's effects, as l-tyrosine is the precursor to dopamine, which is what l-theanine causes your brain to produce more of.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, SOLUTION, your getting "sick" is probably caused by the overproduction of dopamine. Ingesting L-theanine causes release of dopamine around hypothalamus (as does bromocriptine); you probably have magnified its effect by adding a dopamine precursor, which is l-tyrosine.

Also, when you stack l-tyrosine with l-theanine, you can probably decrease l-theanine dosage. But introducing l-tyrosine, you will need to rework the dosage by experimenting: it is rather painstaking.

Just to add to this, I will be starting on a topical ALCAR/l-theanine stack sometime next week, to try to mimic your results, VC. I am just now finishing up a bottle of FL7 which I added 4g of ALCAR to, and noticed some positive effects on sleeping patterns, although more minor than what you have detailed. Link to my initial thoughts on this: Making FL7 ultra, possible ingredients My post at the bottom of the 2nd page has a few comments on what I noticed while running this.

I haven't decided on dosage levels yet for the ALCAR/l-theanine stack, but I will chime in here with what I come up with, and what results I see.

virtual, if one does not have the need for a decrease in overall sleep, would you recommend l-theanine alone?

Logo, I probably would. I think it is good for you and can help you recover, especially stacked with ALCAR, if that is what you are asking. I'd probably use it only once a day, based on the same protocol I outlined above. (probaly cycle it too).

Interesting feedback VC.

R-glutamylethylamide (theanine), we know has a similar structure to that of the amino acid glutamine. Perhaps some of the results noticed are due to Theanine's effects at the Glutamate receptor.

In my experience, adding DMAE and other Acetylcholine agonists to my protocol helped me to reduce my sleep requirements by 1-2 hours/night on average.

Regarding Acetyl-L-Carnitine, the literature consistently shows that 1.5 or more grams/day increases delta/Stage 4 - Deep sleep, and also increases REM sleep as well.

Whats great is that the benefits of ALC are usually noticed within only 2 weeks of use at 1.5-2 grams/day on average. Also, when ALC use is cycled, the benefits remain 2-3 weeks after discontinuation in healthy adults. This supplement is well worth the price IMO for the vast majority of healthy adults due to its multiple benefits/mechanisms of action.

VC, how long were you using ALCAR + theanine before you saw results? I know you've been experimenting a while and it took time before you nailed the protocol, but would 2 weeks sound right to you?

This would be a great stack for me as I constistently get 3 - 4 hours of sleep a night on an extended basis. My body has adjusted (mostly) to this as I have been pulling my long work hours for months now. In any case, I do feel that upping my perceived sleep time would be beneficial in the long run.

btw, wasn't par working on a sleep supplement, something to speed recovery perhaps? it seems like this stack is the solution.

VC, do you purchase both ALCAR and theanine from BAC?

2 weeks IS the correct amount. The research is well-documented also regarding the alpha-wave-enhancing properties of theanine. Any supplement protocol using these ingredients is far, far from being a beneficial recovery-enhancement supplement. At least 5-6 other ingredients in precise ratios would be needed before such a supplement could exert benefical effects and I challenge anyone to come up with such a supplement. So the answer would be "no" -- in regards to this being the "sleep-supplement that could speed recovery".

gotcha. i might just have to give this one a try though. Ergoman, where do you get the components?

From my experience (and my wife's), if you are doing somethign close to what I outlined above, you should feel differently that same night / the morning immediately following the administration. So, if you don't feel sleep disturbances / increased wakefulness right away, there is something wrong with either ( a ) my protocol as described above or ( b ) your implementation of the protocol (e.g., bad timing, weak dosage, ...).

However, it may take your body a few days to adjust and become comfortable. Also, your body might require slight modifications to the protocol. Your body is different from mine, right?



Yes. There is a slight downside, however. I don't have 100% confidence in the purity of their products. I wish I could get their r-ALA, ALCAR, and l-theanine tested by independent labs.

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On recovery, I disagree a bit with ergoman. I believe there is improved recovery (at least in my case). I was amazed myself.

NOTE:

The above protocol I outlined can be improved. For instance, there is an increase in the sleeping needs with prolonged use of the ALCAR + l-theanine stack (1 month?, don't know exactly). The body adjusts.

One can "improve" the stack / protocol to counter these effects, however.

Sorry, I must be confused - can you clarify this a bit? Are you saying you are basically "borrowing" waking hours from yourself, to be paid back at a later time through INCREASED need for sleep?

Also, if anyone has any thoughts on if this would combat the increased need for sleep accompanying depression I would be quite grateful. If there is no theoretical/anecdotal evidence, then I am willing to guinea pig on myself.

Please keep this thread going. I'd love for as many people to try this out as possible. I only ask this as if this shows promise, I'll make the componets for bulk sale. All part of my new site, which hopefully will be up in about 45 days.

I'm considering this stack. Is there a url for BAC?

http://www.beyond-a-century.com/

Say you normally sleep 8 hours. With ALCAR + l-theanine, say you somehow manage to bring the sleeping need down to 5 hours. Then, with prolonged use, the number of sleep hours might climb back up to 6.5 hours or 7 hours.

If so, ALCAR + l-theanine might be depleting certain resources one's body has. In such cases, one might need to take countermeasures.

Gotcha - I thought you meant the need for sleep would increase above baseline (more than the normal 8 hours) to make up for the time in deficit.

Any leads as to what those resources might be?

1fast,
i'd like to see bulk ALCAR and tonalin CLA on your site as per the email request i sent you. if you can beat $18/100 500mg caps of ALCAR and/or $275/2000 1g CLA i'm yours.

on another note, i'll be starting the ALCAR late this week, stacked with GT/CLA/R-ala/biotin.
Do i need to gradually up the dose or can i start at 2g from the outset? also, does ALC potentiate the effects of RLA???

thanks

One more question. Why this stack as opposed to ALCAR + ornithine?

D Sade: I am looking into choline, based on two small hints:

(1) one reference Jon Stark and shplongled posted on ALCAR and choline
(2) what I know about REM sleep.

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Logo:

If I remember correctly, ornithine was mentioned in conjunction with GH release. Now, GH release and deep sleep are related, so onithine might work.

I happened to try l-theanine because Jon Stark posted something about it. It was just an accident.

I see. So ALCAR + ornithine was being used primarily for its effects on overal GH production and l-theanine being used to reduce sleep requirements. In that case, ornithine might be the way to go as I am more interested in the former.

Sorry, Mike....didn't mean to step on your toes (Alpha-GPC thread) with the idea. You would probably get a better deal on bulk anyway.

A quick update to this. I ended up with 9g of ALCAR and 5g of l-theanine in 240ml of gel. Solubility at 58.33 mg/ml, which is a bit lower than I have achieved with some androgens, but the l-theanine did not want to dissolve as easily as the ALCAR. The gel is probably a bit over-saturated even. Anyway, I will run this over 30 days, so the dosage level will be 300 mg/day of ALCAR and 166.67 mg/day of l-theanine, applied topically.

When I added 4g of ALCAR to a bottle of FL7, my dosage level was 133.33 mg/day for ALCAR, so I am over doubling it, from what I was doing. I will start applying this next week, which will give me about a week with no ALCAR being applied, as I have now started on a new bottle of FL7, with no ALCAR added. This should give me a little bit of time to see if my sleep patterns are affected by the subtraction of ALCAR, and also should give me a good chance to see what the immediate effects are when starting the higher dosage of ALCAR stacked with the l-theanine. I will report back with what results I see.

Thanks Shadow.

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There is some feedback by SOLUTION. It is not his "official" feedback, so his view could change, but here is the link to it.

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=S...t=0&#entry48505

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=S...t=0&#entry48642

Thought I'd add some more to this. Last night I took 500 mg ALCAR, 500mg Tyrosine and 800mg Theanine. I went to bed at 9pm and slept straight through until 5:30am. From 5:30am until 6:30am I never really fell back asleep, partly because I didn't feel tired anymore and partly because the fucking birds were chirping outside. Also, I've been dosing ALCAR with Tyrosine in the morning on a partialy empty stomach. Today I took 2g Tyrosine and 1g ALCAR. Testing to see if it will improve against fatigue during the day and for any fatloss.

SOLUTION:

For even better sleep, rather than increasing theanine dosage, I suggest you keep a shotgun by your bedroom window.

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I noticed you _decreased_ ALCAR dosage and slept longer. So far, it seems that your experience is consistent with mine.

Be careful with l-tyrosine. I have a feeling that it increases various neurotransmitters indiscrimnately, which may not be a good thing. I think it has a different effect than l-theanine.

I might try tonight without the Tyrosine and keep the ALCAR at 500mg and Theanine at 800mg. I may also experiment with taking a gram of the Theanine just to test how I respond.
I do have a shotgun, but I think everyone else would just be pissed about that noise! The night before last there was an owl a few hundred feet from my window that would not shut up. In case anyone doesn't already know, owls don't just make a lovely "hoot hoo" sound.

Some things to keep in mind when using these supplements:
L-Theanine is much more effective taken on an empty stomach than during or within an hour of food intake. In human studies, the alpha-wave increases were consistenly noted 30-45 minutes after each dose of 200-400mg of L-theanine and no sedation/fatigue has been reported thus far.

The evidence is quite clear that L-theanine use has an impact on ALL major neurotransmitters including acetylcholine which could explain theanine's memory-enhancing properties, dopamine - which may explain its euphoriagenic/alertness enhancing effects, GABA - with its relaxing but not sedating effects, and especially serotonin - which may explain why theanine use profoundly reduces anxiety and allows one to concentrate/focus better via increased alpha-wave activity.

IMO much more research will need to be conducted before any conclusions can be made regarding L-theanines effects on glutamate, endorphins/enkepahlins, GH/IGF's, vasopressin, prolactin, oxytocin, NO, and prostaglandins etc. Very little sleep research has been conducted using L-theanine in humans...

ergoman500:


I am interested in learning more about l-theanine's effect on GABA and acetylcholine. So far, I have not been able to find any pubmed abstracts / studies on the effect of l-theanine on those neurotransmitters.

So far, I have only found

(1) one study that shows how l-theanine affects dopamine levels.
(2) another study that shows l-theanine _decreases_ serotonin level.

I forget if those studies were on rats.


I would be grateful for any references on l-theanine's effects on acetylcholine and/or GABA.

Last night I used 1gram ALCAR and 600mg l-theanine about three hours before I went to sleep. I woke up a few times after about five or six hours of sleep, but was able to go right back to sleep. I ended up sleeping for nine hours, but that is mostly a result of almost no sleep the night before. I did notice more vivid dreams. I'm trying the same dosage of both tonight.

turoati:

From SOLUTION's feedback and my recent experience, you can probably up the l-theanine dosage (At least for the purposes of testing). We will try to find out if tyrosine can be used to replace at least some of l-theanine to reduce the cost.

Based on animal studies, L-Theanine indirectly enhances GABA's inhibitory effects in the brain by competing with aspartic-acid and norepinephrine. L-theanine's effects on brain dopamine and serotonin levels and/or activity is contradictory at this point.


Juneja LR, et al. 1999. L-theanine–a unique amino acid of green tea and its relaxation effect in humans.


Kobayashi K, et al. 1998. Effects of L-theanine on the release of -brain waves in human volunteers.

Thanks ergoman.

My problem is that I don't live in a library, so I don't have access to the material you have, unless I go through significant trouble.

On serotonin, dopamine and GABA, I did see (contradictory) information at various websites, but I discount them, as they are not pubmed peer-reviewed studies. I tend to be skeptical, unless I look at the original study/abstract.

Last night I took 1gram Theanine and 500 mg ALCAR. I took it about 4 hours before going to bed, which was(bedtime) at 10:30pm. I felt a little groggy this morning and overslept a little bit. I woke up to piss at 5am. Some reasons why it didn't work so well last night: Tyrosine could be helpfull and not taking it effected me negatively, I tend to think that taking the stack closer to bedtime is more productive, maybe my body is just used to going to sleep at 9pm and it affected my sleep pattern - so keeping the time you go to bed constant and changing the time you get up might be better. Also, I started taking 20mgs a day of Novla two days ago and last night started a combo of burn free 1-test and 1-ad. I am taking 5 servings of burn-free throughout the day and 100mgs of 1-ad before bed. I doubt that this would effect my sleep so soon.

SOLUTION:

If you increase ALCAR, you will get up earlier again. Timing matters too, but not as much as ALCAR dosage.

To reiterate,

(1) ALCAR affects "wakefulness." More ALCAR, more awake you will be when you wake up.

(2) l-theanine & tyrosine affects the "restfulness." Increase these, and when you wake up, you will feel more rested.

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Eventually (a few weeks down the road), your body will adapt to a given level of ALCAR. At this point, you will probably need to take choline. I personally found it to be helpful.

Another thing I have found: it takes time for ALCAR to "wash out" of one's body.

Damn, I thought that the NOW l-theanine was $11 for 90 500mg caps. I just found out that they were only 100mg caps.

I bought mine in a local store for $16.99 ....I won't be taking a gram of it again anytime soon!

I'll have ALC in bulk next week. The price will be cheap.

update:
Last night I took 1gram ALCAR and 800mg l-theanine at 12:30AM, went to sleep at 2:30. I woke up at 9:00 and felt fairly good. After being up for about half an hour I realized 1. I am unemployed right now and 2. I have nothing to do today so I went back to sleep for and hour and a half.

My stomach was not completely empty last night when I took the alcar and l-theanine which might have caused problems. I don't know how this whole experiment is working for me because so far I haven't tried to function w/ less sleep than normal. Tomorrow I'm going to set my alaram so I get 7 hours of sleep and report how how I feel.

I don't think it is that big a deal. It just slows the absorption.

SOLUTION, turoati:

BTW, are you guys noticing any "side effects" ( ) in the morning??

Nope, none at all, but I may now with the burn-free/1-ad.

How's the BAC theanine? I noticed that it was only $18.50 for 20g of bulk powder.

As I indicated earlier, I am not confident about BAC products' purity. I have tried their theanine, but it does work as expected at 400, 600, 800 mg and 1.2 g, stacked with ALCAR.