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shpongled
OK this is a long read but worth it IMO. We know the benefits of caloric restriction are many, including increased lifespan. However it would be nice to obtain these benefits without reducing calories, as this makes it quite difficult to obtain appreciable increases in muscle mass. This article would suggest that fasting every other day (and gorging on the other days) would mimic the benefits of caloric restriction without changing body weight. The "common sense" argument that fasting causes catabolism can easily be dismissed, especially if one were to work out only on gorging days (preferably at the beginning of the day). The increased anabolism experienced by combining working out with a hypercaloric state would more than outweigh the catabolism caused by fasting for one day (which, although this would occur during the recovery period, it would not be during the peak of it). Anyway, here's most of the article:

QUOTE
Introduction

Aging refers to the biological changes that occur during a lifetime that result in reduced resistance to stress, increased vulnerability to disease, and an increased probability of death. The rate at which aging occurs is species-specific, suggesting a strong genetic influence. The only environmental variable that has been shown to markedly affect the rate of aging in a wide range of species is caloric intake: Restricting food intake to a level below that which would be consumed voluntarily results in a decrease in the rate of aging and an increase in average and maximum life span (1, 2). Dietary restriction (DR) reduces cancer formation (3, 4) and kidney disease (5) and increases the resistance of neurons to dysfunction and degeneration in experimental models of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases as well as stroke (6-9). Two different DR paradigms have proven effective in increasing life span and disease resistance in rats and mice. In one paradigm animals are provided a daily food allotment that is typically 30-40% less than the ad libitum (AL) consumption of a control population; this limited daily feeding (LDF) paradigm involves a controlled caloric restriction and a corresponding reduction in body weight. In the second paradigm animals are subjected to intermittent (alternate-day) fasting (IF), which in rats results in reduced food intake over time and decreased body weight (10).

Restricting caloric intake causes the restricted population to weigh proportionally less than the AL-fed group. Indeed, weight reduction typically slightly exceeds the degree of food restriction, so that food intake per gram of body weight is reported consistently to be slightly higher in LDF animals than in their AL-fed counterparts (11). Rats and mice usually lose weight when maintained on an IF regimen, although some strains such as C57BL/6 mice may lose little or no weight (12). Both the IF and LDF paradigms are reported to result in dramatic increases in life span in comparison to AL-fed animals (13), but little else is known concerning the similarities and differences in their effects.

It seems reasonable to assume that both LDF and IF paradigms of DR extend life span through a common mechanism. To gain insight into the nature of the underlying mechanism, we compared the effects of LDF and IF diets on several parameters that have been postulated to play a role in the protective effects of DR including body weight, food intake, and fasting levels of serum insulin, glucose, and insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1). In addition, recent studies have shown that rats and mice maintained on an IF regimen exhibit increased resistance of neurons in their brains to insults relevant to the pathogenesis of several different human neurological disorders including epileptic seizures and stroke (6, 8, 14). We therefore performed an experiment to determine whether LDF and IF diets exert similar beneficial effects on neurons in the brain.

....

Results and Discussion

By the end of this study, male C57BL/6 mice subjected to IF were consuming essentially the same amount of food in a 48-h period as did those fed AL. On the days they had access to food, the IF mice ate roughly twice as much as did mice fed AL (Fig. 1a). Mice on the LDF regimen consumed 40% less food as provided: this was reflected in their body weights, which were 49% lower than those of the AL-fed group. In contrast, at the end of the study the body weights of mice maintained on the IF diet or PF on a daily basis were only slightly below those of the AL-fed group (Fig. 1b). A prominent physiological change that occurs in mammals maintained on reduced-calorie diets is increased insulin sensitivity, which often is reflected in decreased fasting plasma levels of glucose and insulin (17). Fasting serum concentrations of glucose and insulin in mice fed AL in the current study averaged 150 mg/dl and 3,400 pg/ml, respectively (Fig. 2 a and cool.gif. The concentrations of glucose and insulin were decreased significantly, to similar amounts, in mice maintained on either LDF or IF regimens with glucose and insulin concentrations dropping to 100 mg/dl and 700-1,100 pg/ml, respectively (Fig. 2). That similar changes are seen in IF and LDF groups in the current study suggests that despite an overall calorie intake similar to mice fed AL, IF has similar effects on circulating glucose and insulin levels.

Levels of circulating IGF-1 were decreased in mice on the LDF diet but increased in mice on the IF diet (Fig. 2c). These findings are of considerable interest in light of evidence that the insulin signaling pathway is linked to longevity in a variety of species (18), and that IGF-1 levels are reduced in rodents on calorie-restricted diets (19). Because mice on the IF regimen were not calorie-restricted, the difference in IGF-1 levels between the IF and LDF groups suggests a difference in the ways in which IF and caloric restriction influence the growth hormone (GH)-IGF-1 axis and insulin signaling pathways. Because insulin levels were decreased in IF mice to levels even lower than in LDF mice, these two DR regimens reveal a dissociation in the mechanisms regulating IGF-1 and insulin levels. Transgenic rats with reduced levels of GH exhibit a transgene dose-dependent reduction in levels of IGF-1; rats with a moderate reduction in IGF-1 levels live longer, whereas those with a greater decrease in IGF-1 levels have a reduced life span (20). The latter results suggest that there is an optimal level of the GH-IGF-1 axis to maximize survival in mammals. With regard to the neuroprotective effects of IF (see data below and refs. 6-9), studies have reported that IGF-1 signaling is neuroprotective in experimental models of neurodegenerative disorders (21, 22). It will be of considerable interest therefore to determine the mechanisms by which LDF and IF differentially affect IGF-1 levels and insulin signaling and how these changes influence energy metabolism, longevity, and disease resistance.

Fasting is known to result in an increased production of ketone bodies, which can be used as an energy source (23, 24) and are known to provide some protective effects including neuroprotection and resistance to epileptic seizures (25-27). We therefore measured serum levels of -hydroxybutyrate after an overnight fast in mice that had been maintained on AL, LDF, and IF diets. Mice on the IF diet exhibited a 2-fold increase in the fasting serum concentration of -hydroxybutyrate compared with mice fed AL (Fig. 2d). In contrast, the -hydroxybutyrate concentration of mice on the LDF diet were decreased compared with mice fed AL.

When the excitotoxin kainic acid (KA) is injected into the dorsal hippocampus of mice it induces seizures and damage to pyramidal neurons in regions CA3 and CA1 (14). KA was injected into the dorsal hippocampus of mice that had been maintained for 24 weeks on AL, LDF, and IF diets. All mice exhibited seizures of similar magnitude and duration (data not shown). Mice were killed 24 h after KA administration, tissue sections from their brains were stained with cresyl violet, and the numbers of neurons in regions CA3 and CA1 of each hippocampus were counted. KA caused a marked loss of CA3 and CA1 neurons in mice fed AL. As expected, many neurons in regions CA3 and CA1 of the hippocampus injected with KA degenerated (Fig. 3). There was a significant increase in the survival of CA3 and CA1 neurons in the IF mice compared with mice fed AL (Fig. 3). LDF also protected the CA1 neurons, albeit to a lesser amount than did IF, but did not protect CA3 neurons against KA-induced damage. Interestingly, the mice PF to the IF group also exhibited an increased resistance of CA1 neurons to KA-induced damage relative to either AL-fed or LDF mice. The major difference between the AL-fed and PF groups is that the latter were very slightly restricted early in the study (10%). This may imply that there is an optimal level of restriction for neuroprotective effects, a hypothesis that would require further study to verify. The 10% restriction in food intake of mice on the IF regimen may account for the differences between AL-fed and PF mice and also may be a factor in the effects of IF on some physiological parameters in this study.

A previous study compared the effects of LDF and IF on life span in male C57BL/6 mice, with the two DR regimens resulting in similar life-span extension despite a clear difference in body weight between the two groups (13). However, food intake was not determined, and it was assumed that the difference in body weight was due to some factor other than caloric intake. The present study establishes that it is the ability of this strain of mice to gorge on days when food is provided that allows them to maintain nearly AL body weight when fed every other day, and they thereby avoid a long-term calorie deficit. That IF feeding was more effective than either LDF or PF in protecting neurons from KA-induced damage demonstrates that the IF-feeding schedule itself is neuroprotective independent of overall caloric intake. In a study of F344 rats Masoro et al. (28) found that when calories are explicitly restricted to 60% of the AL intake, altering meal frequency within a 24-h period neither abrogates nor enhances the effect of the net caloric restriction on life span. Although providing evidence that meal frequency does not alter the ability of caloric restriction to extend life span, that study did not allow a conclusion as to whether IF can increase life span independent of overall calorie intake. The present study suggests that in the absence of explicit restriction, fasting may play a role in at least some of the effects of DR.

Because we did not determine life span in this study, we cannot conclude with certainty that the IF regimen used would extend life span. However, a previous study did establish a life-span-extending effect of the identical IF regimen in the identical strain of mice (12). Moreover, a recent study of mice with adipose tissue-selective disruption of the insulin receptor gene showed that the life span of mice can be increased without a reduction in calorie intake (29). Emerging data from this and other laboratories therefore support future studies to determine whether a reduction in caloric intake is the only dietary method to increase longevity or whether IF without caloric restriction might have beneficial effects as well. Thus, although caloric restriction is one important mechanism underlying the effects of different DR regimens on life span and disease susceptibility, at least some beneficial effects of DR regimens may result from a mechanism other than an overall reduction in calorie intake. One such possible mechanism is stimulation of cellular stress-resistance pathways, which are induced strongly by the IF regimen used in this study (7, 8, 14).

A consistent hormonal response to a decrease in food intake in rodents, nonhuman primates, and humans (30, 31) is a reduction in insulin levels and an increase in insulin sensitivity. We found that mice subjected to IF exhibited decreases in serum levels of glucose and insulin to levels at or below those in mice fed daily but with a 40% reduction in caloric intake. The ability of IF to alter fasting levels of insulin and glucose was independent of overall caloric intake. It has been proposed that some beneficial effects of DR result from decreased blood glucose levels (integrated over time) (2). Glucose levels in the blood, integrated over time, have been postulated to lead to high levels of nonenzymatic glycation, a form of protein damage. Higher fuel availability may also lead to an increased frequency of mitochondrial state-four respiration, with consequent increases in reactive oxygen species production from the mitochondrial respiratory chain. DR has been shown to influence oxyradical production and damage (2) and nonenzymatic glycation (32). The present findings are consistent with a role for glucose in the beneficial effects of IF, because the animals spend a large proportion of their life span in a fasted state. However, it might be predicted that on feeding days, when IF mice gorge on food, their levels of oxyradical production and glycation are much higher than in mice on the LDF regimen. Apparently, confining bouts of high caloric intake to a limited time window with long intervening periods of fasting results in adaptive responses that do not occur when meals are more frequent. Previous studies have shown that there are large changes in respiratory quotient as restricted animals move from ingested to stored fuel (33). It may be that alternating periods of anabolism and catabolism play a mechanistic role in triggering increases in cellular stress resistance and the repair of damaged biomolecules or cells. Recent findings suggest that many of the beneficial effects of IF may result from a cellular stress response induced by the fasted state. For example, it was shown that levels of stress protein chaperones (8, 34) and neurotrophic factors (35) are increased in rats and mice maintained on an IF-feeding regimen. The superior neuroprotective efficacy of IF compared with LDF feeding documented in this study is consistent with enhancement of cellular stress resistance that results from the stress associated with fasting rather than an overall reduction in caloric intake.

Interestingly, although IF and LDF DR regimens had similar effects on insulin and glucose levels, they had different effects on serum IGF-1 levels (increased with IF but decreased with LDF) and serum -hydroxybutyrate levels (increased with IF but decreased with LDF). Decreased IGF-1 levels have been proposed to contribute to the protective effect of DR against carcinogenesis (36). However, IF also protects against tumor growth (37, 38), suggesting that additional mechanisms must be operative in this beneficial effect of IF. Of particular interest with regard to the cytoprotective effect of IF was the large increase in the levels of -hydroxybutyrate, a fat-derived fuel used when the carbohydrate supply is limiting. It is well known that utilization of these fuels increases in the fasting state in various tissues including the brain (39). Because mice on the IF regimen weigh a great deal more than mice on the LDF regimen they may have larger adipose reserves and a greater ketogenic response than that of LDF mice. This shift to ketogenesis may play a direct role in the cytoprotective effects of IF, because it has been reported that rats fed a ketogenic diet exhibit increased resistance to seizures (25), and that -hydroxybutyrate protects neurons in rodent models of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases (27). Ketogenic diets are prescribed for some patients with epilepsy (26) and are also implemented in several popular weight-loss programs (40, 41). The findings of this study suggest that IF can enhance health and cellular resistance to disease even if the fasting period is followed by a period of overeating such that overall caloric intake is not decreased.

The ability of both the IF and LDF paradigms to enhance stress resistance and extend life span provides a useful tool for discerning the mechanism by which DR exerts its effect. If a change such as an altered hormone level is proposed to play a fundamental mechanistic role, it should occur in response to both feeding regimes. Comparison of the two paradigms thus provides opportunities for discerning the mechanisms underlying the modulation of aging rate by DR.


From: Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 May 13;100(10):6216-20. Epub 2003 Apr 30. Intermittent fasting dissociates beneficial effects of dietary restriction on glucose metabolism and neuronal resistance to injury from calorie intake. Anson RM, Guo Z, de Cabo R, Iyun T, Rios M, Hagepanos A, Ingram DK, Lane MA, Mattson MP.
lylemcd
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 3 2003, 02:12 AM)
From: Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 May 13;100(10):6216-20. Epub 2003 Apr 30. Intermittent fasting dissociates beneficial effects of dietary restriction on glucose metabolism and neuronal resistance to injury from calorie intake. Anson RM, Guo Z, de Cabo R, Iyun T, Rios M, Hagepanos A, Ingram DK, Lane MA, Mattson MP.

It's days like this I wish I were a rat.

Lyle
shpongled
QUOTE(lylemcd @ Oct 3 2003, 05:29 AM)
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 3 2003, 02:12 AM)
From: Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 May 13;100(10):6216-20. Epub 2003 Apr 30. Intermittent fasting dissociates beneficial effects of dietary restriction on glucose metabolism and neuronal resistance to injury from calorie intake. Anson RM, Guo Z, de Cabo R, Iyun T, Rios M, Hagepanos A, Ingram DK, Lane MA, Mattson MP.

It's days like this I wish I were a rat.

Lyle

The life extending properties of both caloric restriction and intermittent fasting have been demonstrated in a multitude of species (and, the initial results in primates are very promising). Perhaps you could offer an argument as to why these effects would be drastically different in humans?
shpongled
I don't have time to do much more research on this for the next few days, but I was looking around for effects of IF on body comp, and this is what I found so far (couldn't find one on regular animals)....

Endocrinology. 2003 Jun;144(6):2446-53. Related Articles, Links


Reversal of behavioral and metabolic abnormalities, and insulin resistance syndrome, by dietary restriction in mice deficient in brain-derived neurotrophic factor.

Duan W, Guo Z, Jiang H, Ware M, Mattson MP.

Laboratory of Neurosciences, National Institute on Aging Gerontology Research Center, Baltimore, Maryland 21224, USA.

Dietary restriction (DR) extends life span and improves glucose metabolism in mammals. Recent studies have shown that DR stimulates the production of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) in brain cells, which may mediate neuroprotective and neurogenic actions of DR. Other studies have suggested a role for central BDNF signaling in the regulation of glucose metabolism and body weight. BDNF heterozygous knockout (BDNF+/-) mice are obese and exhibit features of insulin resistance. We now report that an intermittent fasting DR regimen reverses several abnormal phenotypes of BDNF(+/-) mice including obesity, hyperphagia, and increased locomotor activity. DR increases BDNF levels in the brains of BDNF(+/-) mice to the level of wild-type mice fed ad libitum. BDNF(+/-) mice exhibit an insulin-resistance syndrome phenotype characterized by elevated levels of circulating glucose, insulin, and leptin; DR reduces levels of each of these three factors. DR normalizes blood glucose responses in glucose tolerance and insulin tolerance tests in the BDNF(+/-) mice. These findings suggest that BDNF is a major regulator of energy metabolism and that beneficial effects of DR on glucose metabolism are mediated, in part, by BDNF signaling. Dietary and pharmacological manipulations of BDNF signaling may prove useful in the prevention and treatment of obesity and insulin resistance syndrome-related diseases.

-edit- An additional comment: I think this idea is very much in line with what we have been seeing recently, following a cyclic diet in the short term (such as carb cycling), although this is of course more extreme. I am intrigued by many aspects of this, to say the least. For example, the fact that IF causes ketosis, but you can still eat carbs - seems to me that a reduced calorie diet would be especially effective for fat loss on this regimen, and easier. Rats subjected to IF, for example, eat 30% less than AL rats despite being able to eat ad lib on non-fasting days.
JuniorMint6669
Im having a very hard time eating ~3700 calories every day. I cant imagine trying to get ~7400 in one day, even after a day of fasting.

In periods of caloric deficit though, seems very interesting. I could go a day without eating easy if taking ephedrine+caffeine.

Im not sure if this has ever been brought up, what about 12 hours fasting and 12 hours feeding. Has this ever been studied/shown to have any benefits. Of course, this would be much easier to accomplish. Simply stop eating a few hours before and/or after sleeping
pluto
I'd wait for primate studies to draw real conclusions, since rats have different feeding habits and a much higher metabolic rate.
mickysnir
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 3 2003, 05:40 AM)
The life extending properties of both caloric restriction and intermittent fasting have been demonstrated in a multitude of species (and, the initial results in primates are very promising). Perhaps you could offer an argument as to why these effects would be drastically different in humans?

[QUOTE]
Of Calorie-Restriction: yes.
Of intermittent fasting: not so many; in fact very few.
Besides, if you believe it works, try it out, and tell us how it works.
shpongled
[quote=mickysnir,Oct 4 2003, 03:48 PM] [quote=shpongled,Oct 3 2003, 05:40 AM]The life extending properties of both caloric restriction and intermittent fasting have been demonstrated in a multitude of species (and, the initial results in primates are very promising). Perhaps you could offer an argument as to why these effects would be drastically different in humans?[/quote]
[QUOTE]
Of Calorie-Restriction: yes.
Of intermittent fasting: not so many; in fact very few.
Besides, if you believe it works, try it out, and tell us how it works. [/quote]
I am going to try it (or, something similar), and do a lot more research (once I get DSL and it doesn't take 20 minutes to get a PDF).

I have about 100 references on intermittent fasting now, many of which are direct research, mostly in rats, but in other animals as well. There's a lot of information on the psychological effect in humans, haven't found any on physical health though. And there's tons of literature on acute fasting, but one can immediately tell by comparing the literature that the physiological response to acute fasting or even IF for a short period (a few weeks) is much different than that of long term IF.
prolangtum
A clean 3700 cals may be tough, but, its not too hard. Whole grain bagels, avocado dip, hummus, PB, whole fruit spreads, etc, are easy calorie dense foods to eat. What do your 3700 cal days look like as far as composition? Are you shooting a certain p/c/f ratio?
virtualcyber
This is pretty interesting.

So far, I had been convinced that slow, steady repartitioning is better. Maybe there is more to caloric cycling than psychological effect.

I think I will experiment with this.
ergoman500
Some human feedback on the effects of caloric restriction of ~30% less calories than maintenance can be found from the Biosphere project.

Even thought less than 10 people were in the study, it lasted 2 years and provides some interesting feedback.

In summary, a ~30% restriction in calories (combined with supplementation and mild physical activity), decreased blood pressure by 25-30%, total bodyweight dropped 15-20% - (I'm assuming LBM accounted for some of the weight-loss for sure), fasting blood insulin/blood glucose dropped 18-20%, total cholesterol dropped over 30%, and the white blood cell counts dropped between 25-30% in the humans who spent ~2 years in the Biosphere...

The reductions in total WBC count I find the most interesting overall...
pluto
QUOTE(ergoman500 @ Oct 6 2003, 02:41 PM)
Some human feedback on the effects of caloric restriction of ~30% less calories than maintenance can be found from the Biosphere project.

And I though Biosphere was just a bad movie.

I don't doubt that chronic calorie reduction has (favorable) physiological effects, but I do doubt that the effects of IF = those of chronic CR.
ergoman500
QUOTE(pluto @ Oct 6 2003, 06:23 PM)
QUOTE(ergoman500 @ Oct 6 2003, 02:41 PM)
Some human feedback on the effects of caloric restriction of ~30% less calories than maintenance can be found from the Biosphere project.

And I though Biosphere was just a bad movie.

I don't doubt that chronic calorie reduction has (favorable) physiological effects, but I do doubt that the effects of IF = those of chronic CR.

I was writing from memory when I posted earlier. The abstract below is the "biosphere" that I was referring to in my post...


J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2002 Jun;57(6):B211-24.

Calorie restriction in biosphere 2: alterations in physiologic, hematologic, hormonal, and biochemical parameters in humans restricted for a 2-year period.

Walford RL, Mock D, Verdery R, MacCallum T.

Department of Pathology, Center for Health Sciences, University of California, Los Angeles 90095, USA. roy@walford.com

Four female and four male crew members, including two of the present authors (R. Walford and T. MacCallum)--seven of the crew being ages 27 to 42 years, and one aged 67 years--were sealed inside Biosphere 2 for two years. During seven eighths of that period they consumed a low-calorie (1750-2100 kcal/d) nutrient-dense diet of vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, and legumes, with small amounts of dairy, eggs, and meat (approximately 12% calories from protein, approximately 11% from fat, and approximately 77% from complex carbohydrates). They experienced a marked and sustained weight loss of 17 +/- 5%, mostly in the first 8 months. Blood was drawn before entry into Biosphere 2, at many time-points inside it, and four times during the 30 months following exit from it and return to an ad libitum diet. Longitudinal studies of 50 variables on each crew member compared outside and inside values by means of a Bayesian statistical analysis. The data show that physiologic (e.g., body mass index, with a decrease of 19% for men and 13% for women; blood pressure, with a systolic decrease of 25% and a diastolic decrease of 22%), hematologic (e.g., white blood cell count, decreased 31%), hormonal (e.g., insulin, decreased 42%; T3, decreased 19%), biochemical (e.g., blood sugar, decreased 21%; cholesterol, decreased 30%), and a number of additional changes, including values for rT3, cortisol, glycated hemoglobin, plus others, resembled those of rodents or monkeys maintained on a calorie-restricted regime. Significant variations in several substances not hitherto studied in calorie-restricted animals are also reported (e.g., androstenedione, thyroid binding globulin, renin, and transferrin). We conclude that healthy nonobese humans on a low-calorie, nutrient-dense diet show physiologic, hematologic, hormonal, and biochemical changes resembling those of rodents and monkeys on such diets. With regard to the health of humans on such a diet, we observed that despite the selective restriction in calories and marked weight loss, all crew members remained in excellent health and sustained a high level of physical and mental activity throughout the entire 2 years.

PMID: 12023257 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
ergoman500
David or anyone else, do you think the over 24% reductions of T-3 during only ONE day of fasting is significant? How might this be beneficial or not while fasting intermittently?


Metabolism 1976 Jan;25(1):79-83

Starvation-induced alterations of circulating thyroid hormone concentrations in man.

Merimee TJ, Fineberg ES.

Serum concentrations of triiodothyronine (T3), thyroxine (T4), and TSH were examined in seven men and seven women of normal weight during a 60-hr fast. Similar studies were conducted in two women who received daily for 1 mo before and during a similar fast, 0.4 mg and 0.5 mg of 1-thyroxine. The serum concentrations of T3 decreased in each of the untreated normal subjects (sign test of significance, P less than 0.001). The mean control concentration of T3 in women was 152 +/- 9 ng/100 ml (X +/- SEM); after 24 hr of fasting, 131 +/- 31 ng/100 ml; and at the termination of the fast, 90 +/- 15 ng/100 ml. The latter value differed from the control value with a p value of less than 0.01. Similar changes of T3 concentration occurred in men (mean basal T = 160 +/- 11 ng/100 ml; mean at termination of fast = 87 +/- 16 ng/100 ml). The range of decrease for T3 in all subjects varied from 24% to 55%. The mean T4 concentration at the beginning of the fast was 6.9 +/- 0.9, and at the termination of the fast, 7.5 +/- 0.6 (p = NS). TSH concentrations remained unchanged (Control, 3.8 +/- 0.45 muU/ml; at 60 hr, 4.0 +/- 0.26 muU/ml, p = NS). Studies in two women who received, before and during a fast, T4, indicate that a decreased peripheral conversion of T4 to T3 is the most likely mechanism responsible for this change.
JuniorMint6669
QUOTE(prolangtum @ Oct 5 2003, 10:32 PM)
A clean 3700 cals may be tough, but, its not too hard.  Whole grain bagels, avocado dip, hummus, PB, whole fruit spreads, etc, are easy calorie dense foods to eat. What do your 3700 cal days look like as far as composition? Are you shooting a certain p/c/f ratio?

Was this for me? I am eating mostly clean, high carb, moderate fat, ~200-220g protein. Its not terribly hard, but I find the more I eat, the more my enjoyment for eating is diminished. And as the days go by, I find myself forcing more food down than Ive had to in the past. I do eat quite a bit of PB. Occasionally drink Olive oil.

Im going to go on a 3-4 week cut though. Thats my calorie cycling. 6-8 weeks bulk, 2-4 weeks cut. When I return to bulking, my appetite always returns. But my calories are at an all time high at the moment.

I was just trying to imagine 7400 calories. I could do that eating ~50% fat maybe lol biggrin.gif
shpongled
QUOTE(ergoman500 @ Oct 6 2003, 04:42 PM)
David or anyone else, do you think the over 24% reductions of T-3 during only ONE day of fasting is significant? How might this be beneficial or not while fasting intermittently?


Metabolism 1976 Jan;25(1):79-83

Starvation-induced alterations of circulating thyroid hormone concentrations in man.

Merimee TJ, Fineberg ES.

Serum concentrations of triiodothyronine (T3), thyroxine (T4), and TSH were examined in seven men and seven women of normal weight during a 60-hr fast. Similar studies were conducted in two women who received daily for 1 mo before and during a similar fast, 0.4 mg and 0.5 mg of 1-thyroxine. The serum concentrations of T3 decreased in each of the untreated normal subjects (sign test of significance, P less than 0.001). The mean control concentration of T3 in women was 152 +/- 9 ng/100 ml (X +/- SEM); after 24 hr of fasting, 131 +/- 31 ng/100 ml; and at the termination of the fast, 90 +/- 15 ng/100 ml. The latter value differed from the control value with a p value of less than 0.01. Similar changes of T3 concentration occurred in men (mean basal T = 160 +/- 11 ng/100 ml; mean at termination of fast = 87 +/- 16 ng/100 ml). The range of decrease for T3 in all subjects varied from 24% to 55%. The mean T4 concentration at the beginning of the fast was 6.9 +/- 0.9, and at the termination of the fast, 7.5 +/- 0.6 (p = NS). TSH concentrations remained unchanged (Control, 3.8 +/- 0.45 muU/ml; at 60 hr, 4.0 +/- 0.26 muU/ml, p = NS). Studies in two women who received, before and during a fast, T4, indicate that a decreased peripheral conversion of T4 to T3 is the most likely mechanism responsible for this change.

The hormonal change caused by one day of fasting will be quite negative. The hormonal change caused by one day of overfeeding will be quite positive. Fasting is going to increase cortisol and decrease T3, leptin, etc.

I am inclined to think that supplements that will acutely block cortisol and ones that increase T3 and leptin may be very beneficial on fasting days

However, it is always possible that these will interfere with the life extension benefits, which may be mediated in part by said hormones.

edit: Also worthy of note is that it is important to differentiate between an acute one day fast and chronic intermittent fasting. The literature on acute fasting can be very misleading, I've seen, when it comes to IF
virtualcyber
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 7 2003, 04:29 PM)
However, it is always possible that these will interfere with the life extension benefits, which may be mediated in part by said hormones.


Only thing one can hope to show here is that IF is NOT incompatible with body building life style.

Obviously, we will not know whether IF will increase lifespan, from this "experiment."
vain68
This discussion is very intriguing and I believe I have some anecdotal evidence to add to the mix which may appear favorable to IF type eating.

For purposes we won't go into (well, we can, I want to stay very lean) I maintain a good deal of distance cardio and reduced calorie intake (dieting). On some occasions, my CHO intake is kept at sub ketogenic levels (>30g/day) while when distance running is in the mix (i.e., 8 miles or greater), I raise carbs to around the 150g-200g range. This is still fairly low for this type of activity. Calories are kept between 2000 and 2600 on most days. Lifting is maintained on a base HST protocol lifitng core movements approximately 3-4 times per week.

I can maintain this "pseudo-fasted" state for some time before bingeing occurs. The bingeing is involuntary and is not necessarily related to hunger (more probably to dude with ghrelin). What have I noticed?

After reintegrating the new HST type protocol and getitng back into the iron game, I have gone from very lean and emaciated, to much thicker and still very lean.

On the binge days I will eat well in excess of 10,000kcal involuntarily. This I know trust me, and its easy. This sets up a milieu conducive to return dieting (i.e., pseudo-fasting). I have identified this issue, and rather than change my diet up necessairly, I have accepted this style of eating/training. It seems that the intermittent fasting coupled with the binges has done a good deal in the order of allowing me to gain LEAN LBM while negating fat gain for the most part. Waist is still at a 30 and will increase slightly to a 31 up to three days after the binge. However, given rate-limiting factors during the binge, only so much lipogenesis can occur.

In addition, supplements such as R-ala and others can further add to the mix in terms of Intermitting fasting.

All in all this is a very intriguing line of research, one that I think holds much merit. For all those that think fasting, or even ketogenic dieting is outdated and obsolete, i disagree. It seems not so much the average macro/kcal combinations over the long-haul, but rather what is the acute feeding environment? IF fasting type situations prevent homeostatic mechanisms from becomming entrenched, and keep the body on its toes so to speak.

I am going to continue this method (partly due to hard-headedness) but the results speak for themselves.

Vain
SLL
This site covers fasting indepth & may be info. with some value here -

www.anti-aging-guide.com

SL
virtualcyber
shpongled:

You probably know this already, but there seems to be some evidence that the fasting state modulates the amplitude of the anti-oxidant hormones related to sleep, such as melatonin (which have been anti-oxidant effect greater than ALA).
shpongled
Hmm... for now, I am sticking with a yo-yo diet, but not quite as extreme (eating 1.5 times as much on high cal days). If that works out I am going to increase the gap. Still, it's good to see more feedback/ideas on this, I am going to do further research when I get a chance, but simply have too much going on right now.
bradley
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 13 2003, 03:01 PM)
Hmm... for now, I am sticking with a yo-yo diet, but not quite as extreme (eating 1.5 times as much on high cal days). If that works out I am going to increase the gap. Still, it's good to see more feedback/ideas on this, I am going to do further research when I get a chance, but simply have too much going on right now.

Sounds like more of a cyclical iso-caloric approach, which seems to work well for many.
vain68
Virtual,
can you elaborate on the sleep antioxidants and fasting a bit.......
Thanks ,
Vain
Tatsuo
This is very intriguing. A protocol for one who consumes 3000kCal/day would consist of: 3500kCal/d 6days/wk; 0kCal/d 1day/wk. How would one tailor their supplement regimen on the fasted day?
virtualcyber
QUOTE(vain68 @ Oct 13 2003, 11:00 PM)
Virtual,
can you elaborate on the sleep antioxidants and fasting a bit.......
Thanks ,
Vain

I don't have at hand the reference citations, but I remember reading pubmed abstracts that show melatonin is one of the strongest (much better than ALA) anti-oxidants around.

We also know, from pubmed journals that the release of melatonin in human body signals the onset of sleep and cascade of hormone reactions. As it turns out, the amplitude of these hormones (including melatonin, it seems) are affected by the food intake.

Let me dig up reference abstracts and post them, in the next few days.
Tatsuo
Most of what I've seen regarding the antioxidant capacity of melatonin supplementation has involved ingesting massive doses (in rats of course). Some studies use up to 50mg/kg. I think 1mg/kg for humans is too much, it could damage your pineal gland, or at least fuck up your sleep cycle.
vain68
So Virtual,
if I am following you correctly, then fasting actually increases the amplitude of this hormones release? Reason being I find that when cutting, particularly at lower levels of body fat, and particularly during the dark (night), I find it very hard to sleep....almost as if my body becomes animalistic, hypervigilent, searching for food.


Interestingly, anybody notice any of this symptomatology during their fasting or extended cutting....very intriguing here.

http://river-centre.org/StarvSympt.html

I notice my use of salts and spices goes through the roof...in some cases I will ingest straight Ms. Dash's spices and other flavorings.

Vain
Par Deus
QUOTE(virtualcyber @ Oct 14 2003, 08:16 AM)

I don't have at hand the reference citations, but I remember reading pubmed abstracts that show melatonin is one of the strongest (much better than ALA) anti-oxidants around.


Yeah, there are several pineal ideoles that are profoundly good AA's
Section 8
Slightly OT (sorry) but given some of the comments, I thought you guys might be interested nonetheless.

The most recent issue of Discover magazine (Nov, not yet available online) has an article related to human aging, and the proposition that some individuals in our generation will reach 150 yrs. of age. They cite a statistical study by Vaupel and Owen (2002) that shows a linear increase in average life span, of m = + 2ys/decade, for every decade since 1840. Towards the end of the article, U Boston geriatrician Tom Perls puts forth a theory that the increase in life span could be due to evolving genes, noting that: "'We have a small number of people, particularly guys, who do everything short of throw an atomic bomb at their bodies and still live to 100.' Many members of [Perl's] group ignore dietary guidelines and refuse to exercise; some have been smoking 3 packs per day for 50 years. 'They have genes that allow them to get away with things that aren't very good for them. We'd like to understand what is going on.'" Personally, I have always wondered how people like George Burns could get away with smoking cigars all day long and live to over 100, while other smokers, poor eaters, etc., can develop cancer or heart disease before hitting 30 yrs of age; it really makes you wonder how much of it really is environment and how much is genes. Obviously for those without super-genes (most of us, so far as we know) diet, exercise, low stress, and whatever, are the surest path to probable health. I do wonder, though, if as a species our genes might be evolving to better cope with some of the horrific stressors we subject our body to on a regular basis. Resistance to lung cancer, in particular, I find interesting; the most common causes of lung cancer - smoking, living in Los Angeles - have only been around for a few hundred years.

Relating to the discussion at hand, one of the researchers in the article noted that the ethnic/gender group that currently has the longest average life span, is Japanese women, who live an average of 85 years. As far as fasting goes, the Japanese, as a nation, are not exactly known for their high-calorie quisine; I would guess that my bed time snack has more calories than the average Japanese woman takes in in a single day (unfortunately, the article made no mention of their eating habits and I have no time to research right now, so I can only speculate sad.gif ) This also seems to support omega 3/6 for longer life, as the Japs aren't real big on cheeseburgers.

Just some food for thought.
shpongled
QUOTE(bradley @ Oct 13 2003, 04:27 PM)
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 13 2003, 03:01 PM)
Hmm... for now, I am sticking with a yo-yo diet, but not quite as extreme (eating 1.5 times as much on high cal days). If that works out I am going to increase the gap. Still, it's good to see more feedback/ideas on this, I am going to do further research when I get a chance, but simply have too much going on right now.

Sounds like more of a cyclical iso-caloric approach, which seems to work well for many.

Yeah, not really anything new.

Although, I am considering fasting one day a week.
shpongled
QUOTE(Tatsuo @ Oct 14 2003, 03:52 PM)
Most of what I've seen regarding the antioxidant capacity of melatonin supplementation has involved ingesting massive doses (in rats of course).  Some studies use up to 50mg/kg.  I think 1mg/kg for humans is too much, it could damage your pineal gland, or at least fuck up your sleep cycle.

Ergoman posted a few studies a while back that showed this to not be the case
shpongled
QUOTE(Section 8 @ Oct 14 2003, 06:26 PM)
Slightly OT (sorry) but given some of the comments, I thought you guys might be interested nonetheless.

The most recent issue of Discover magazine (Nov, not yet available online) has an article related to human aging, and the proposition that some individuals in our generation will reach 150 yrs. of age.  They cite a statistical study by Vaupel and Owen (2002) that shows a linear increase in average life span, of m = + 2ys/decade, for every decade since 1840.  Towards the end of the article, U Boston geriatrician Tom Perls puts forth a theory that the increase in life span could be due to evolving genes, noting that: "'We have a small number of people, particularly guys, who do everything short of throw an atomic bomb at their bodies and still live to 100.'  Many members of [Perl's] group ignore dietary guidelines and refuse to exercise; some have been smoking 3 packs per day for 50 years.  'They have genes that allow them to get away with things that aren't very good for them.  We'd like to understand what is going on.'"  Personally, I have always wondered how people like George Burns could get away with smoking cigars all day long and live to over 100, while other smokers, poor eaters, etc., can develop cancer or heart disease before hitting 30 yrs of age; it really makes you wonder how much of it really is environment and how much is genes.  Obviously for those without super-genes (most of us, so far as we know) diet, exercise, low stress, and whatever, are the surest path to probable health.  I do wonder, though, if as a species our genes might be evolving to better cope with some of the horrific stressors we subject our body to on a regular basis.  Resistance to lung cancer, in particular, I find interesting; the most common causes of lung cancer - smoking, living in Los Angeles - have only been around for a few hundred years.

Relating to the discussion at hand, one of the researchers in the article noted that the ethnic/gender group that currently has the longest average life span, is Japanese women, who live an average of 85 years.  As far as fasting goes, the Japanese, as a nation, are not exactly known for their high-calorie quisine; I would guess that my bed time snack has more calories than the average Japanese woman takes in in a single day (unfortunately, the article made no mention of their eating habits and I have no time to research right now, so I can only speculate  sad.gif  )  This also seems to support omega 3/6 for longer life, as the Japs aren't real big on cheeseburgers.

Just some food for thought.

Dude, it's not due to evolution. That guy has to be on crack. Sure, we do a bunch of things that are shitty for our bodies. But survival rates have skyrocketed due to new medicines and treatments and a higher standard of living. Better sanitation, vaccines, and effective treatments for many of the most common diseases and conditions have all extended lifespan considerably. The idea that our bodies are put through more stress than they were hundreds or thousands of years ago is absurd.

I definitely think diet (especially the high quantities of seafood), as well as lifestyle are very significant factors in the longer lifespan of the Japanese. And FYI, the word "Japs" is not PC.
ergoman500
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 7 2003, 03:29 PM)
QUOTE(ergoman500 @ Oct 6 2003, 04:42 PM)
David or anyone else, do you think the over 24% reductions of T-3 during only ONE day of fasting is significant? How might this be beneficial or not while fasting intermittently?


Metabolism 1976 Jan;25(1):79-83

Starvation-induced alterations of circulating thyroid hormone concentrations in man.

Merimee TJ, Fineberg ES.

Serum concentrations of triiodothyronine (T3), thyroxine (T4), and TSH were examined in seven men and seven women of normal weight during a 60-hr fast. Similar studies were conducted in two women who received daily for 1 mo before and during a similar fast, 0.4 mg and 0.5 mg of 1-thyroxine. The serum concentrations of T3 decreased in each of the untreated normal subjects (sign test of significance, P less than 0.001). The mean control concentration of T3 in women was 152 +/- 9 ng/100 ml (X +/- SEM); after 24 hr of fasting, 131 +/- 31 ng/100 ml; and at the termination of the fast, 90 +/- 15 ng/100 ml. The latter value differed from the control value with a p value of less than 0.01. Similar changes of T3 concentration occurred in men (mean basal T = 160 +/- 11 ng/100 ml; mean at termination of fast = 87 +/- 16 ng/100 ml). The range of decrease for T3 in all subjects varied from 24% to 55%. The mean T4 concentration at the beginning of the fast was 6.9 +/- 0.9, and at the termination of the fast, 7.5 +/- 0.6 (p = NS). TSH concentrations remained unchanged (Control, 3.8 +/- 0.45 muU/ml; at 60 hr, 4.0 +/- 0.26 muU/ml, p = NS). Studies in two women who received, before and during a fast, T4, indicate that a decreased peripheral conversion of T4 to T3 is the most likely mechanism responsible for this change.

The hormonal change caused by one day of fasting will be quite negative. The hormonal change caused by one day of overfeeding will be quite positive. Fasting is going to increase cortisol and decrease T3, leptin, etc.

I am inclined to think that supplements that will acutely block cortisol and ones that increase T3 and leptin may be very beneficial on fasting days

However, it is always possible that these will interfere with the life extension benefits, which may be mediated in part by said hormones.

edit: Also worthy of note is that it is important to differentiate between an acute one day fast and chronic intermittent fasting. The literature on acute fasting can be very misleading, I've seen, when it comes to IF

I think that perhaps PPAR-delta-agonists will produce many of the same body-composition enhancing effects as IF can acomplish in humans...Time will tell...(IMO, at least some beneficial HDL-Cholesterol elevations and fasting triglyceride/insulin reductions are a sure thing with this approach).

Strategic Metformin use could also possibly "tweak" and enhance the effects of one day/week fasting in humans also I would anticipate.

I will post some references soon...
Section 8
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 14 2003, 08:26 PM)
Dude, it's not due to evolution. That guy has to be on crack. Sure, we do a bunch of things that are shitty for our bodies. But survival rates have skyrocketed due to new medicines and treatments and a higher standard of living. Better sanitation, vaccines, and effective treatments for many of the most common diseases and conditions have all extended lifespan considerably. The idea that our bodies are put through more stress than they were hundreds or thousands of years ago is absurd.

I definitely think diet (especially the high quantities of seafood), as well as lifestyle are very significant factors in the longer lifespan of the Japanese. And FYI, the word "Japs" is not PC.

I agree with you about the whole life-style, medicine, etc., thing. I'm certainly not banking on any super-genes, myself. My post didn't necessarily extrapolate any of my own theories (I don't actually have any on this topic), I was just musing on the authors'. It has to make you wonder though, as we really don't know much of anything about the evolutionary process; would it necessarily take an inordinate amount of stress, or just radically different stressors, to spark change? Personally, I don't really think that 'stress,' as a thing experienced by a complex biological system, can really be quantitatively analyzed; there are many different component systems that undergo different types of stress to varying degrees. I do think it provides for some interesting theorizing on the topic, at the very least. Its a shame that we don't have better epidemeological statistics for the past several hundred years than we do.

David: do you recall, off hand, if you've ever seen any study on unrelated cancer-types (or disease) in people who seem to be immune to the more typical carcinogens (tobacco)? It really baffles me how some can smoke several packs a day and never so much as weeze; I wonder if they have lower (or higher) rates of other cancers.

**

Sorry if I offended anyone with the 'Japs' thing, I didn't intend to use it as a racial slur, I tend to forget that people are sensitive to such things after typing for a while.
ergoman500
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 14 2003, 11:17 PM)
QUOTE(Tatsuo @ Oct 14 2003, 03:52 PM)
Most of what I've seen regarding the antioxidant capacity of melatonin supplementation has involved ingesting massive doses (in rats of course).  Some studies use up to 50mg/kg.  I think 1mg/kg for humans is too much, it could damage your pineal gland, or at least fuck up your sleep cycle.

Ergoman posted a few studies a while back that showed this to not be the case

IF, just may stimulate the pineal gland to secrete more melatonin. We know that melatonin decreases body temperature which is a variable consistently noted during IF and even mild caloric restriction. These melatonin benefits are above and beyond its potent AA effects also.
(Schwartz et al 1998; Bonilla et al. 2002).

Of course, MUCH more research will need to be performed before any definitive conclusions can be drawn...
bradley
QUOTE(ergoman500 @ Oct 15 2003, 12:41 AM)
I think that perhaps PPAR-delta-agonists will produce many of the same body-composition enhancing effects as IF can acomplish in humans...Time will tell...(IMO, at least some beneficial HDL-Cholesterol elevations and fasting triglyceride/insulin reductions are a sure thing with this approach).

While I am not very knowledgeable about PPARdelta, I was under the impression that PPAR-delta was not something that you would want to manipulate.

I believe Spook has mentioned this in various posts, but if you could offer any clarification it would be appreciated.
shpongled
QUOTE(Section 8 @ Oct 15 2003, 12:43 AM)
David: do you recall, off hand, if you've ever seen any study on unrelated cancer-types (or disease) in people who seem to be immune to the more typical carcinogens (tobacco)?  It really baffles me how some can smoke several packs a day and never so much as weeze; I wonder if they have lower (or higher) rates of other cancers.

Haven't seen anything along those lines, personally. However I think the differences is kind of as a result of a misperception - smoking does not necessarily "cause lung cancer," it increases the risk. In fact it was not until a few decades ago that this was fully established. There is an amazing amount of other variables that go into this, and some people with completely healthy lifestyles will develop cancer, while others that abuse their bodies will live considerably long lives. Not smoking may not extend life at all in certain individuals, but it certainly increases the likelihood of longevity, statistically speaking.
Section 8
QUOTE(shpongled @ Oct 15 2003, 04:33 PM)
Haven't seen anything along those lines, personally. However I think the differences is kind of as a result of a misperception - smoking does not necessarily "cause lung cancer," it increases the risk. In fact it was not until a few decades ago that this was fully established. There is an amazing amount of other variables that go into this, and some people with completely healthy lifestyles will develop cancer, while others that abuse their bodies will live considerably long lives. Not smoking may not extend life at all in certain individuals, but it certainly increases the likelihood of longevity, statistically speaking.

That actually makes sense, especially given all of the other destructive properties of smoking (blood pressure, decrease blood oxygen, etc.)

Thanks.
ergoman500
QUOTE(bradley @ Oct 15 2003, 06:32 AM)
QUOTE(ergoman500 @ Oct 15 2003, 12:41 AM)
I think that perhaps PPAR-delta-agonists will produce many of the same body-composition enhancing effects as IF can acomplish in humans...Time will tell...(IMO, at least some beneficial HDL-Cholesterol elevations and fasting triglyceride/insulin reductions are a sure thing with this approach).

While I am not very knowledgeable about PPARdelta, I was under the impression that PPAR-delta was not something that you would want to manipulate.

I believe Spook has mentioned this in various posts, but if you could offer any clarification it would be appreciated.

This abstract below gives a strong reason IMO for manipulating/activating PPAR-delta in order to obtain many of the benefits of IF along with possible muscular growth enhancement as well...

FASEB J. 2003 Oct 2

Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta controls muscle development and oxydative capability.

Luquet S, Lopez-Soriano J, Holst D, Fredenrich A, Melki J, Rassoulzadegan M, Grimaldi PA.

Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs) are nuclear receptors exerting several functions in development and metabolism. The physiological functions of PPARdelta remain elusive. By using a CRE-Lox recombination approach, we generated an animal model for muscle-specific PPARdelta overexpression to investigate the role of PPARdelta in this tissue. Muscle-specific PPARdelta overexpression results in a profound change in fiber composition due to hyperplasia and/or shift to more oxidative fiber and, as a consequence, leads to the increase of both enzymatic activities and genes implicated in oxidative metabolism. These changes in muscle are accompanied by a reduction of body fat mass, mainly due to a large reduction of adipose cell size. Furthermore, we demonstrate that endurance exercise promotes an accumulation of PPARdelta protein in muscle of wild-type animals. Collectively, these results suggest that PPARdelta plays an important role in muscle development and adaptive response to environmental changes, such as training exercise. They strongly support the idea that activation of PPARdelta could be beneficial in prevention of metabolic disorders, such as obesity or type 2 diabetes.

PMID: 14525942 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
vain68
Got a PM from Lgoosey the other day asking me to describe my particular dietary strategy in this regard;

I want to start off that I found that fasting/overfeeding worked well for LBM gain by accident;
I had been dieting down for some time waaaaaay back in the day when I knew very little about this game or endocrinology/neuroendocrionlogy in general....needless to say, I was devasted over my first true binge, as the next morning I was in a state of rigor mortis. Since that time I have learned this state will dissipate after some time and that the net result (if the lifting stimulus is applied) seems to be a gain in LBM if resumed fasting/dieting is continued following the binge episode.

From an empirical standpoint, there could be many reasons for this;

Figure on rate-limiting factors in the lipogenic cascade versus insulin-mediated anabolism in muscle tissue.

Keep in mind initial leaness, increased insulin sensitivity, and where anabolism is most likely to occur when very lean (muscular and intramuscular)....in a way, the constant flux of binge then fasting keeps you in a lean state when the 24-48hr period of bingeing occurs.....thus, proportionally more LBM will be added if the research (do not have my article binders in front of me now) is on target, which replication has shown it seems to be.

Although research on acute overfeeding is limited, individual variation will play a large role in how much ones thermic activity burns off aditional caloric excesses (thus preventing fat gain); keeping in mind that insulin is going to be jacked during the whole binge, I eat as much high quality protein I can during it, even though I crave crap foods not normally allowed (cereal, candy bars etc.)

Muscle fiber type will also play a role; (see discussion over at Rugged on changing body fat)...if one possesses more type I fibers, chances are additional oxidation of excesses CHO and ITMG fat will occur given the specific metablic characteristics of that muscle tissue; hence, I have done much more distance runnning and hit, along with regular lifting protocols (my goal is not to be hyuge but to have extreme leaness and symettery with the muscle hypertrophy I do have).

In describing my binges, I eat pretty much anything although I am cognizant of relatively cleaner foods such as fat free boxes of cereal, rice cakes, bagels and whatever......usually the binge is dictated by what is around (if at work etc.) and who is around (I don't like to be seen gorging)...it is not planned.....I diet until it happens, and you know when it comes. The body has a remarkable way of fighting back. However, if you view this as a positive in that fasting/overfeeding is a natural ebb and flow, then a whole different perspective is gained.

Vain
prolangtum
I just realized I have a friend who does sort of the same underfeed, refeed thing. He is rather large(muscular) @ 240. Competitive in local NPC, etc. He is under a work release program for violating probation, and has to go to jail from 8pm friday to 4 am Monday. His meals are very meager while in jail, probaly ~1500 cals a day. He has noticed that since starting this, he has actually gained muscle, whereas he thought he would lose over the weekend.
ergoman500
"...I was devasted over my first true binge, as the next morning I was in a state of rigor mortis. Since that time I have learned this state will dissipate after some time and that the net result (if the lifting stimulus is applied) seems to be a gain in LBM if resumed fasting/dieting is continued following the binge episode."

Vain, I personally experienced the exact same thing when I first began what I call "strategic caloric manipulation."

I will post some more specifics soon, along with my response to the Canadian identical twin over-feeding studies which used 100 days of 1000+ additional calories on young identical twin men with some interesting results...
ergoman500
QUOTE(ergoman500 @ Oct 18 2003, 12:09 PM)
"...I was devasted over my first true binge, as the next morning I was in a state of rigor mortis. Since that time I have learned this state will dissipate after some time and that the net result (if the lifting stimulus is applied) seems to be a gain in LBM if resumed fasting/dieting is continued following the binge episode."

Vain, I personally experienced the exact same thing when I first began what I call "strategic caloric manipulation."

I will post some more specifics soon, along with my response to the Canadian identical twin over-feeding studies which used 100 days of 1000+ additional calories on young identical twin men with some interesting results...

The abstract below may offer some explanations for the gains in LBM noted after massive carbohydrate "over-feeding" short-term in humans...


Eur J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;57(9):1107-15.

Metabolic response to a large starch meal after rest and exercise: comparison between men and women.

Folch N, Peronnet F, Massicotte D, Charpentier S, Lavoie C.

Departement de kinesiologie, Universite de Montreal, Centre-Ville, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

BACKGROUND: Net whole-body and hepatic de novo lipogenesis could be more active in women than in men, but no comparison has been made between men and women in the two phases of the ovarian cycle after ingestion of a large carbohydrate meal. OBJECTIVE: We hypothesized that net whole-body de novo lipogenesis could be larger in women than men, and that glycogen and fat balance could be, respectively, lower and higher, following a large pasta meal ingested after rest or exercise. DESIGN: The metabolic response to a pasta meal (5 g dry weight/kg body mass) was studied in six men and six women (matched for age and BMI) in the follicular and luteal phases, following rest or exercise (90 min at 50% VO(2max)). Protein, glucose, and fat oxidation, and net whole-body de novo lipogenesis were computed for 10 h following ingestion of the meal using indirect respiratory calorimetry corrected for urea excretion. RESULTS: No net whole-body de novo lipogenesis was observed in any group in any situation (postrest and postexercise). When the meal was ingested following exercise, fat oxidation was significantly higher and glucose oxidation was significantly lower (P<0.05) than following the period of rest, and in a given experimental situation, the respective contributions of protein, fat, and glucose oxidation to the energy yield were similar in men and women in both phases of the cycle. CONCLUSIONS: The contribution of substrate oxidation to the energy expenditure as well as fat and glycogen balance, and the effect of a previous exercise period, were similar in men and women in both phases of the cycle following ingestion of the large carbohydrate meal.
vain68
Ergo, indeed your points are very true.

I do not imply that some fat is not gained on these binges; if the binge includes a higher proportion of carbs and fat (particularly in the form of candy bars etc.) then I do notice visceral fat accumulate (by virute of some transient waist size changes, minus the variance attirbutable to water gain). It seems there is a time threshold to the binge in which I either look okay the next morning or like the stay puff. That, plus the aforementioned fat factor. If I am in a near state of depletion, I can really crank the carbs and protein without much adverse effect except some discomfort from fullness. Keep in mind, binges are different than overfeeds for me (see definitions I espouse on rugged mag). The following are additional studies that may be applicable to this approach. I do not advocate or tout this approach at this time, as it certainly does not bode relatively well for a social life unless you can find someone who understands that your eating disorder (so to speak) is not really that.

Mauriege, P. et al. (1992). Adipose tissue lipolysis after long-term overfeeding in identical twins. International Journal of Obesity, 16, 219-225.

Poehlman, E. T. et al. (1986). Genotype-dependency of adaptation in adipose tissue metabolism after short-term overfeeding. American Journal of Physiology, 250, E480-485.

Sun, Guang. et al. (2002). Skeletal muscle characteristics predict body fat gain in response to overfeeding in never-obese young men. Metabolism, 51(4), 451-456.

This one is interesting; I'll explain why momentarily.

Nindl, B.C. et al. (1997). Physical performance and metabolic recovery among lean, healthy men following a prolonged energy deficit.

The Nindl (everyone should know who he is) study is interesting in this regard:
When dieting severely (e.g., fasting) most of the critical endocrinological messenger systems downregulate. For example, leptin drops, T drops, IGF-1drops, Insulin drops etc. etc. They drop below baseline levels and stay there as long as fasting continues. When overfeeding commences, these hormones shoot to above baseline levels for a period of time, thus maximizing anabolic processes. In this regard, particularly depending on leaness, such a fasting-overfeeding situation maximizes the anabolic response of skeletal muscle at the expense of fat gain (assuming training is in tact). Obviously repeated bouts of fasting/bingeing may allow adapatation to occur, but this is still debatable. I would argue that the fast periods have to be long enough to allow for the downgrading of the critical horomones which we are going to shoot up upon overfeeding binging. Obviously an above baseline shoot up in insulin and T simultaneously can only be good. In addition, leptin shoots up (as long as binge/overfeed is long enough) and this is crucial for additional fat loss when fasting is resumed. Finally, with supplements such as ALA and other similar nutrient partitioning goodies, combined with knowledge of what training protocols (including cardio) provide for the best possible regulation of these binges, significant LBM can be accrued at the expense of fat mass IMO. Lipogenic processes do occur (see Minehira K. et al., 2003*), but this may be dependent on the length of the binge, as opposed to the acute caloric intake (i.e., the longer the binge, the more time to up-regulate key lipogenic enzymes and metabolic processes). Determination to restart the strict dieting or severe fasting is necessary to reap the benefits of this approach.

*Minehira, K. (2003). Effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on whole body and adipose tissue metabolism in humans. Obesity research, 11, 1096-103.

Just my two cents for the evening.


Vain
Blade
Isn't this pretty much what Lyle's UD2 is all about? Or severe underfeeding instead of total fasting, of course - I'd think this avoids muscle losses better if done correctly.
ergoman500
QUOTE(vain68 @ Oct 19 2003, 09:28 PM)
Ergo, indeed your points are very true.

I do not imply that some fat is not gained on these binges; if the binge includes a higher proportion of carbs and fat (particularly in the form of candy bars etc.) then I do notice visceral fat accumulate (by virute of some transient waist size changes, minus the variance attirbutable to water gain).  It seems there is a time threshold to the binge in which I either look okay the next morning or like the stay puff.  That, plus the aforementioned  fat factor.  If I am in a near state of depletion, I can really crank the carbs and protein without much adverse effect except some discomfort from fullness.  Keep in mind, binges are different than overfeeds for me (see definitions I espouse on rugged mag).  The following are additional studies that may be applicable to this approach.  I do not advocate or tout this approach at this time, as it certainly does not bode relatively well for a social life unless you can find someone who understands that your eating disorder (so to speak) is not really that.

Mauriege, P. et al.  (1992).  Adipose tissue lipolysis after long-term overfeeding in identical twins.  International Journal of Obesity, 16, 219-225.

Poehlman, E. T. et al.  (1986).  Genotype-dependency of adaptation in adipose tissue metabolism after short-term overfeeding.  American Journal of Physiology, 250, E480-485.

Sun, Guang. et al.  (2002).  Skeletal muscle characteristics predict body fat gain in response to overfeeding in never-obese young men.  Metabolism, 51(4), 451-456.

This one is interesting; I'll explain why momentarily.

Nindl, B.C.  et al.  (1997).  Physical performance and metabolic recovery among lean, healthy men following a prolonged energy deficit.

The Nindl (everyone should know who he is) study is interesting in this regard:
When dieting severely (e.g., fasting) most of the critical endocrinological messenger systems downregulate.  For example, leptin drops, T drops, IGF-1drops, Insulin drops etc. etc.  They drop below baseline levels and stay there as long as fasting continues.  When overfeeding commences, these hormones shoot to above baseline levels for a period of time, thus maximizing anabolic processes.  In this regard, particularly depending on leaness, such a fasting-overfeeding situation maximizes the anabolic response of skeletal muscle at the expense of fat gain (assuming training is in tact).  Obviously repeated bouts of fasting/bingeing may allow adapatation to occur, but this is still debatable.  I would argue that the fast periods have to be long enough to allow for the downgrading of the critical horomones which we are going to shoot up upon overfeeding binging.  Obviously an above baseline shoot up in insulin and T simultaneously can only be good.  In addition, leptin shoots up (as long as binge/overfeed is long enough) and this is crucial for additional fat loss when fasting is resumed.  Finally, with supplements such as ALA and other similar nutrient partitioning goodies, combined with knowledge of what training protocols (including cardio) provide for the best possible regulation of these binges, significant LBM can be accrued at the expense of fat mass IMO.  Lipogenic processes do occur (see Minehira K. et al., 2003*), but this may be dependent on the length of the binge, as opposed to the acute caloric intake (i.e., the longer the binge, the more time to up-regulate key lipogenic enzymes and metabolic processes).  Determination to restart the strict dieting or severe fasting is necessary to reap the benefits of this approach.

*Minehira, K.  (2003).  Effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on whole body and adipose tissue metabolism in humans.  Obesity research, 11, 1096-103.

Just my two cents for the evening.


Vain

Vain, thank you very much for your feedback and research information on this topic. It is much appreciated... smile.gif
shpongled
Hey look what I just found

QUOTE
Am J Physiol. 1988 Jun;254(6 Pt 2):R877-84.  Related Articles, Links 


Metabolic and structural adaptations to exercise in chronic intermittent fasted rats.

Favier RJ, Koubi HE.

Laboratoire de Physiologie, UA 621 and 181 Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Lyon, France.

The effect of repetitive alternance of 3 days fasting and 3 days refeeding on morphological and biochemical ability to perform exercise was investigated in adult male rats. At the end of 10 wk of chronic intermittent fasting, the rats had consumed 20% less food but were able to maintain their initial body weight. Intermittent fasted rats (IF) had significantly lower carcass fat but had maintained the percent contribution of proteins to total carcass weight. The relative mass of liver, heart, kidney, and muscles was not affected by such dietary manipulation. Both glycolytic and oxidative enzyme capacities were reduced in IF rat muscles. In response to exercise (2 h of swimming), control rats displayed hypoglycemia, whereas IF rats were able to maintain plasma glucose level in spite of a reduced energy supply from liver (low glycogen stores) and adipose tissue (low plasma free fatty acid levels). This had been obtained by accumulating glycogen and triglycerides in muscles and by deriving energy for muscular contraction from the in situ breakdown of these energetic substrates. In addition, although IF rats displayed a markedly reduced liver protein content, the liver exercise-induced protein breakdown was abolished in these animals.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...3&dopt=Abstract

Go to the related articles... there is a ton of other shit
shpongled
Another good one...

Am J Clin Nutr. 1984 Nov;40(5):1011-6. Related Articles, Links


Energy depot replenishment in rats during refeeding after fasting: effect of exercise.

Presta E, Yang MU, Segal KR, Bjorntorp P.

The effect of progressive moderate exercise on body weight gain, visceral and muscle protein stores, and thyroid hormone levels during an 8-day refeeding period after 65 h of starvation was studied in 2-month-old male Sprague-Dawley rats. Twenty-four animals were divided into three groups and acclimated for 5 days while being fed with ordinary Purina Chow. After the fasting phase, a group of rats was killed in order to provide base-line information concerning fasting-induced changes in body composition; a sedentary group was fed Purina Chow ad libitum; and a treadmill-exercised group was pair fed with the sedentary rats. During the refeeding phase, the exercised animals regained significantly less weight than the sedentary animals (p less than 0.001), but the two groups did not differ significantly with respect to visceral, muscle, eviscerated carcass, and skin protein. Total body fat content was lower in the exercised than the sedentary group. The thyroid hormone levels were not significantly different for the two refed groups. These results indicate that exercise during refeeding may alter the pattern of body weight gain during refeeding after fasting such that the replenishment of adipose tissue stores is reduced without compromising the restoration and growth of lean tissue.


With all the other studies above, there appears to be a wealth of evidence....
prolangtum
65 hour fast? Thats sounds fun.
vain68
Ergo,
it is my honor to be included in this group over at Avant
Thank you very much.

Vain
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